Episode 110 - Faith v Belief

Ever wondered about the difference between faith and belief? In this episode of the Christian AF Podcast, Jesse, Jen, and Evan dive into the profound yet often misunderstood distinction between these two concepts. They explore how Western culture and Bible translations have blurred the lines between faith and belief, potentially fueling the rise of deconstruction within the church.

Join the hosts as they discuss the implications of prioritizing belief over faith, the influence of charismatic leaders, and the vital role of the Holy Spirit. Through theological insights, historical examples, and personal stories, they unpack how faith begins where belief ends, calling for trust and commitment beyond mere cognitive understanding. This episode challenges listeners to reconsider the foundation of their faith and how it can endure beyond the finite nature of human belief.

So, grab your preferred beverage, settle in, and join us as we navigate the crossroads of faith, belief, and the essence of Christian life.

EPISODE DRINKING NOTES:

• TOPO CHICO - Tangerine with Ginger Extract
• LAVAZZA - Qualità Rossa Whole Bean

Transcript

01;00;06;08 - 01;00;26;07
Evan
Ho ho ho! Hey, everybody, welcome to the Christian AF podcast. Today we are talking about faith and the differences between faith and belief, and why belief can ruin your faith if, you don't understand the difference. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

01;00;26;10 - 01;00;30;12
Jesse
so you and we're back.

01;00;30;15 - 01;00;31;28
Jen
Are we?

01;00;32;00 - 01;00;35;01
Evan
Yeah. Thank you for, We just took a little break there. It was.

01;00;35;06 - 01;00;38;15
Jen
Somewhat accidental. Woops.

01;00;38;18 - 01;00;42;23
Jesse
Well, we haven't had a break. That was two weeks ago. 2 or 3 a month ago.

01;00;42;23 - 01;00;48;11
Jen
They missed one. We had one less episode in June. Yeah, but you probably didn't even notice, did you guys?

01;00;48;11 - 01;00;51;02
Jesse
Nobody even noticed. They didn't know. The numbers haven't gone up.

01;00;51;09 - 01;00;53;23
Jen
Also, we're not drinking today.

01;00;53;25 - 01;00;55;04
Jesse
This is, weirdly dry.

01;00;55;11 - 01;00;56;24
Jen
Dry July is.

01;00;56;24 - 01;00;58;16
Evan
Happening. this is.

01;00;58;18 - 01;00;59;05
Jesse
What.

01;00;59;07 - 01;01;00;05
Jen
You're not drinking?

01;01;00;07 - 01;01;04;29
Jesse
Terrible thing. Not the whole July. Well, actually, the whole July, pretty much.

01;01;05;00 - 01;01;06;10
Evan
You're not drinking on the fourth?

01;01;06;12 - 01;01;20;07
Jesse
I'm going to drink on the fourth. What I've said is, I'm loosely not drinking. I. I'm allowing myself if I feel the want the, once a week and and gently. Not like an all day ranger. Yeah.

01;01;20;09 - 01;01;23;07
Jen
So not like the Midwest day drink situation.

01;01;23;07 - 01;01;26;15
Jesse
Yeah, that's. I mean, we'll see how the fourth goes. That's. That isn't all day.

01;01;26;20 - 01;01;27;09
Jen
America.

01;01;27;11 - 01;01;30;15
Jesse
America. You got to get drunk for America.

01;01;30;18 - 01;01;30;29
Jen
With.

01;01;30;29 - 01;01;38;29
Jesse
Beer. So today's, episode I am drinking, Topo Chico a little Topo Chico. You glad that you like that?

01;01;39;00 - 01;01;40;29
Jen
It's like a sparkling mineral water.

01;01;41;00 - 01;01;44;06
Jesse
It's the tangerine with ginger extract version.

01;01;44;12 - 01;01;45;03
Jen
It's fine.

01;01;45;06 - 01;01;45;24
Evan
It's good.

01;01;45;27 - 01;01;47;06
Jen
The blueberry one is better.

01;01;47;10 - 01;01;47;21
Jesse
It is.

01;01;47;21 - 01;01;49;06
Jen
Better. And the lime is blueberry.

01;01;49;06 - 01;01;50;00
Jesse
Hibiscus?

01;01;50;07 - 01;01;55;15
Jen
Yeah, it's good stuff. And Evan and I have coffee. Good coffee. Evan also cannot stop yawning.

01;01;55;16 - 01;01;58;25
Jesse
The fact that you guys are drinking coffee and everyone's on super tired is.

01;01;58;25 - 01;02;00;29
Jen
I'm not tired. I'm just chill.

01;02;01;05 - 01;02;20;09
Evan
Get it? Well, it's like vibin. We were gone last weekend visiting our good friends, and they, I mean, they they kind of fill your cup a little bit. So Monday I woke up early because I was, like, wired. And I got, like all my stuff done before 10 a.m.. I woke up like six and just burned through a whole bunch of stuff.

01;02;20;11 - 01;02;23;18
Evan
And and now I'm feeling it on what's now not.

01;02;23;18 - 01;02;24;23
Jesse
You're exhausted.

01;02;24;25 - 01;02;26;28
Jen
Great.

01;02;27;00 - 01;02;29;27
Jesse
yeah. SIP at the same time. All right, all right. It's fun.

01;02;29;29 - 01;02;33;23
Evan
Well, it's better than, like, Jesse chopping into the microphone. Oh my God.

01;02;33;25 - 01;02;46;26
Jen
Did you end up leaving that tour? Did he did so you could hear him crunching? Yeah. So bad. And then me scolding him. And we left it in the episode because it was hysterical. If anyone had. What's that? Well, we don't like to hear.

01;02;46;27 - 01;02;48;18
Jesse
We waited to eat sounds.

01;02;48;18 - 01;02;51;02
Evan
Yeah. human to human.

01;02;51;02 - 01;02;56;20
Jesse
Human. You know, I'm taking the microphone. We got lunch right before. I'm not going to sit down and we'll say, well.

01;02;56;20 - 01;03;00;27
Jen
It's because we had to panic record more because of the Tim Snafu.

01;03;01;01 - 01;03;02;07
Evan
But yeah, yeah.

01;03;02;09 - 01;03;03;16
Jesse
But we're fine now.

01;03;03;22 - 01;03;10;22
Jen
So, and if you really want to not hear Jesse Chu, just skip that. Well, they're going to have no idea when it's coming. No, it's going.

01;03;10;22 - 01;03;20;16
Jesse
To be a great surprise for anybody though. Crunchy. also with Tim, we did have to. We officially rebooked with him early August.

01;03;20;17 - 01;03;25;14
Jen
Early. So it should be our first episode of August. Would it be the second week of August? Will be. Tim would.

01;03;25;19 - 01;03;27;05
Evan
When are we recording with him?

01;03;27;07 - 01;03;28;01
Jen
The eighth.

01;03;28;08 - 01;03;28;23
Evan
Okay, good.

01;03;28;28 - 01;03;29;28
Jesse
So if you have questions.

01;03;29;28 - 01;03;30;23
Evan
It's not the first week because.

01;03;30;26 - 01;03;49;25
Jesse
No no, no, look up, look up. new the new evangelicals. His stuff is all over the place, so just check it out if you have questions or want us to ask anything specific, feel free to do that. because we will be interviewing him at that point again. So, anyway.

01;03;49;27 - 01;03;52;17
Jen
So what are we talking about?

01;03;52;19 - 01;04;18;16
Evan
well, I have been using in my brain for the past, I don't know, a year or so about this idea. kind of the nature of faith, and how we treat it in a Western context, specifically in this kind of, I guess you could say the springboards off the last episode where we talked about a little bit church growth and, and the recoil back to that.

01;04;18;20 - 01;04;43;17
Evan
Not necessarily, but from a church growth standpoint. and how I believe we've tend to conflate the two terms, belief and faith. Part of that problem is our English translations of the Bible. they, you know, translations. You have the word that's the in Greek is pestis. And so you will have either that that will either mean faith or belief.

01;04;43;17 - 01;05;12;17
Evan
So depending on which book or which version of reading, it could say belief or faith. And that's like an English problems because we don't have we don't have like the depth of language that they did. And so we've conflated faith and belief, largely in society and in, in America. I think that has led to, on some level, or at least contributed to the rise of the deconstructive movement.

01;05;12;19 - 01;05;44;20
Evan
Not like outside of the, you know, Jacques Derrida philosophy of deconstruction, but specifically in the church. It's caused a lot of people who have their faith is based on their own cognitive ability to understand something or to believe something, rather than recognizing that faith is actually faith. Faith begins where a belief ends. Some sense, like faith, you know, because our belief is we're it's it's it's fallacious on some level, like we always were tricking ourselves into believing certain things.

01;05;44;23 - 01;06;11;28
Evan
And it's definitely temporal and very finite. So we have a, an inability to comprehend things beyond our capacity for belief. So when somebody says, for instance, somebody says, I'm an atheist, here's XYZ. Why I'm an atheist, it's like, well, you're actually just living in your own finite understanding ability to understand rather than recognizing, oh, there actually could be something.

01;06;11;28 - 01;06;38;11
Evan
This is Kierkegaard, you know. You know, existentialism is all about we exist beyond our own brains, beyond our own mind. Part of it, you know. And so, in the, in the a specifically over the past few years began it really began with Mark Driscoll. and then when did he get fired? He got fired in, like 2015 or 16 or something like that.

01;06;38;13 - 01;07;00;23
Evan
I think, but that created a domino. Of course, there were pastors who failed before him, but that created a domino effect of these megachurch charismatic. Even though Driscoll is not charismatic. Well, he is now, but he wasn't then. he's also weird. Has anybody seen, like, his recent videos? I'm like, what on earth has happened?

01;07;00;28 - 01;07;03;02
Jen
2014 he resigned.

01;07;03;02 - 01;07;04;12
Evan
Okay, 24 and he was around.

01;07;04;12 - 01;07;04;17
Jen
There.

01;07;04;18 - 01;07;30;26
Evan
Marzo yeah. And it and it I mean the first pastor to really fall but not from doing anything bad but just from being wishy washy was Rob Bell in 2012. from not because he has rubbers like an inability to answer a question like I love Rob Bell, don't get me wrong. But he it's just like, dude, just answer a stinking just like someone ask you just don't put it back on someone I like.

01;07;30;26 - 01;07;55;03
Evan
Just answer the stupid question. So that kind of wishy washy ness kind of led to him resigning. and he wanted to do something else, so he claimed, but then you have Mark Driscoll, who fell from being a douche. And then that led to, like, Perry Noble, who was at, New Point Church in South Carolina. Those like a 30,000 person church.

01;07;55;03 - 01;08;05;22
Evan
He fell because he was an alcoholic, an abusive husband, got divorced, and a week after he got divorced, plants in another church. Oh, just called Second Chance Church. Oh, yeah.

01;08;05;25 - 01;08;06;23
Jen
Close to home, right? Yeah.

01;08;06;23 - 01;08;25;23
Evan
He is the absolute worst. Like, I remember our pastor in Alabama loved Perry Noble. I never heard of him before. And he said he asked me to, like, look him up and watch us. And I don't think I've ever heard anybody more like dumber. Like he's. He's just dumb. He comes across as dumb. I doubt that he's actually dumb, but it comes across as dumb.

01;08;25;23 - 01;09;09;15
Evan
He talks dumb. His points are dumb. So Perry Noble fail. And then after Perry know we have Bill Hybels, and then after Bill Hybels, you have, James McDonald, the two Chicago guys fell. And then that kind of spurred on this, this more charismatic band of pastors falling car lines is the big one. But there are there are others, in churches, kind of, surrounding or churches protecting a lot of these people, specifically in the Ark Church Association of Related Churches, those are, if there's a big charismatic church that has a lot of lights and a lot of people and a lot of haze and a lot of cool pastors, that's most likely

01;09;09;15 - 01;09;37;17
Evan
in Ark Church. So like the one in our town, they are associated with Ark. And, and that's just like an a loose association of churches around the country. It's a church planting organization, is what it is. But those churches have had over the past three years, like an insane amount of scandal, which has led to church closures, which has led to people leaving the faith, people leaving church, their communities, the people they love.

01;09;37;20 - 01;10;03;04
Evan
I think, just from talking to Tim Whitaker a little bit and hearing a little bit of his story, he comes from a little bit of that charismatic circle, like his perspective is coming from that circle. and so it really it really says, well, what are what are some of the markers of those types of churches in American evangelicalism as a general generality?

01;10;03;04 - 01;10;31;29
Evan
And I think it comes down to if you believe, then you're good, right. altar call, come down, claim your belief in Jesus, or all heads bowed, all eyes closed, raise your hand at the end of the service and receive Jesus into your hearts. And so silly like you sound so silly now, right? And that that is based only on our ability to reason.

01;10;32;03 - 01;11;02;10
Evan
It's not really actually based off of experiencing the Holy Spirit or experiencing the gospel. It's is this something I can rationalize? And if it's something I could rationalize, therefore I can believe in it. And that's a very, very, very slippery slope. And so I think this episode I want to talk about kind of those differences, kind of discuss some of those differences between faith and belief, and why belief is part of faith for sure.

01;11;02;10 - 01;11;07;12
Evan
But it is it is in itself not faith. Does that make sense? Yeah.

01;11;07;14 - 01;11;15;09
Jesse
So do you want to go through, what? The strong differences. I know you kind of pushed it a little bit right there.

01;11;15;11 - 01;11;59;17
Evan
well, faith, faith as a whole is the. It's the ability or not the ability. It is the sacrifice of one's own. One's own finiteness in order to be committed or devoted or all trusting to something beyond yourself. and, and that is something that grows over time. if we could talk about faithfulness, faithfulness is commitment to somebody or something like, if you are faithful to an organization, you are committed to that organization.

01;11;59;17 - 01;12;33;23
Evan
If you are faithful to a spouse, you are committed to that spouse and not, cheating on it, him or her. if you are faithful to a friend, that in faithfulness is regardless of what happens within the relationship between organization and individual or between individuals in, romantic relationship or platonic, whatever struggles take place or whatever pushback happens or whatever roadblocks you face, you are able to overcome those, whether there are disagreements, fights, you know that they didn't give me a raise this year.

01;12;33;24 - 01;12;56;07
Evan
Whatever it is, you're able to overcome that because you are being faithful to the whole rather than kind of the one side. And so faithfulness to God is regardless, or faith in God and faithfulness to God is regardless of like circumstantial, temporal things that are happening in your life. There is still a commitment there between the two parties.

01;12;56;09 - 01;12;57;19
Evan


01;12;57;22 - 01;13;05;16
Jesse
So, would there be would you say there's a massive lack of faith in the church these days, comparatively. So unless where the failure comes from.

01;13;05;16 - 01;13;06;12
Evan
Yeah, absolutely.

01;13;06;15 - 01;13;29;28
Jesse
Yeah. And so I guess, where do we see that? Why do we see that happening more and more rather than a faith based. Yeah. Well, sweeping the nation, you know, like, I mean, we I know we, we specifically, you know, talked this year for our church. We're, we're digging into more like Holy Spirit based things and like we're talking more in that kind of realm of things.

01;13;29;29 - 01;13;49;16
Jesse
Yeah. Would that have anything to do with it? Because I feel like I feel like most of the churches I've been to in the past or things like that, we don't really float as much in the realm of of the mystery. Yeah, the gospel mystery. And I feel like that also like pairs with faith. Like it I mean yeah.

01;13;49;22 - 01;13;53;22
Jesse
You have belief in something you. Yeah. Or trust in something. The yeah.

01;13;53;28 - 01;14;13;26
Evan
Yeah. Well it comes I mean it stems the reason why the it we struggle with it in the west is it stems from the enlightenment, particularly beginning with Descartes and I think therefore I am, you know, in other words, we are nothing more than the combination of our thoughts. and that led to enlightenment philosophy, the Age of Reason.

01;14;13;26 - 01;14;43;17
Evan
By the time, you know, around the time United States became a nation, was the age of reason, deism became a thing. Like, yeah, there's probably a god, but that God doesn't do anything in the world. That's deism. the gods are active, in other words. and so that that spurred on this need, the enlightenment spurred on this need to to, to rationalize every single thing in Scripture.

01;14;43;17 - 01;15;06;16
Evan
That's where systematic theology, like John Calvin, kind of the granddaddy of systematic theology, that whole thing is built on we need to be able to understand and reason through things, and we need to eliminate the mystery. If we can eliminate the mystery, then it'll be way easier for people to have faith. But eliminating the mystery defeats faith.

01;15;06;18 - 01;15;08;01
Evan
you know, as a whole.

01;15;08;03 - 01;15;18;28
Jen
Yeah, because we're just looking for it to be fully explained otherwise, that we can't have faith. Yeah, not like if you can't or the things that are unexplainable.

01;15;19;04 - 01;15;38;13
Jesse
Well, I think and this might be what you were saying. Like, I think understanding helps with faith. It supports it to a point. maybe not in my head. Having gone through a lot of the stuff, gone through the construction, gone through some of the stuff that we've gone through and actually dug back in, not walk away from the church.

01;15;38;16 - 01;16;01;22
Jesse
Some of the stuff that has made me question and doubting and worry and all those things, taking it from a different belief perspective, has made faith more, it's attainable, I guess. And I've always, like I've always felt like I've approached faith in a, I mean, I, I don't explain it in any way other than that I believe because I have the things I've seen.

01;16;01;22 - 01;16;19;14
Jesse
I know what I believe. Yeah. You know, nothing's changing that. But like, I think you get rocked a little bit when you're like, well, my beliefs form around the faith, so my belief doesn't make sense now. Or somebody questions something that I believe in. I'm like, I don't know why that makes sense. But then, yeah, I don't know where I'm going with it, but you know what I mean?

01;16;19;14 - 01;16;30;04
Jesse
Like, it's I feel like some of the answers has made to be like, yeah, the faith still makes sense here. Yeah. The beliefs are shifting. Yeah. But that doesn't mean my faith is gone. Yeah.

01;16;30;06 - 01;16;48;29
Evan
Yeah. I mean, the great we see this in the Gospels with Jesus in the centurion when he heals the centurion's son. Right. The centurion comes up to Jesus. And it was in the chosen season for which I will promote. I mean, it's excellent. People are like, well, there was one thing that was like really controversial. It's like, it's not really that kind of it's just it's TV show guys.

01;16;49;02 - 01;16;51;07
Jesse
You know, proverbial I've never watched that.

01;16;51;07 - 01;16;54;23
Evan
Well, one that you should because it's excellent. It's like really done well.

01;16;54;25 - 01;16;57;07
Jesse
Solid thing to say.

01;16;57;10 - 01;17;00;03
Evan
No. Like it I will.

01;17;00;05 - 01;17;01;19
Jesse
I've heard a lot of people.

01;17;01;23 - 01;17;10;14
Evan
However there's another one that just came out not by the same people, but it's called Promised Land. And it's like Moses, but like at the office, it's holy.

01;17;10;14 - 01;17;13;13
Jesse
I just saw a little clip of that. That looks it looks pretty dang funny.

01;17;13;13 - 01;17;15;09
Evan
It is the first episode that came out.

01;17;15;13 - 01;17;16;14
Jen
It's like satire.

01;17;16;14 - 01;17;20;25
Evan
Yeah, yeah, but it's like a Christian company who made it. But it's like.

01;17;20;25 - 01;17;21;11
Jesse
It was.

01;17;21;18 - 01;17;22;05
Evan
Really funny.

01;17;22;05 - 01;17;25;22
Jesse
I think one clip I saw look pretty. Dang it. What is that? Is that it's on.

01;17;25;27 - 01;17;27;08
Evan
The first episodes on YouTube?

01;17;27;09 - 01;17;29;02
Jesse
Is that. Yeah. I have to look that up. Yeah.

01;17;29;04 - 01;17;53;16
Evan
Just like a little sidebar, Jethro, Moses's father in law shows up and they're, like, happy to see him. But then Jethro starts doing father in law things like, that's not how I would do it. Or is it really funny? That's what. Yeah. yeah. So, Yeah. So Jesus with the centurion. we know the phrases I believe help me in my unbelief that would be more accurately translated.

01;17;53;16 - 01;18;25;08
Evan
I have faith, but help me in my unbelief. In other words, I am, I don't I I'm not quite believing, like what you're saying or believing in like because, you know, there's a mystical nature to even Romans at that time where, you know, faith healers, oracles, things like that. But Jesus was claiming to be God. And so there's like, I have faith in this idea, but I I'm not quite at a point where I believe it.

01;18;25;11 - 01;18;35;09
Evan
which is what that what that whole scenario was really about the other. It's nice that the kid got healed, but the whole thing was about faith, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

01;18;35;11 - 01;19;02;13
Jen
Yeah. Does the. So I was just as though we were talking about this, I, I am seeing a sort of a trend. Maybe this isn't accurate, but that like, obviously faith is a lot more, I almost use the word ethereal, but more like, more spiritual, more, harder to grasp or like, what's the the Hebrews scripture that says, like, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see like more.

01;19;02;15 - 01;19;24;16
Jen
We can't quite put our fingers on it. When you look at faith that way. So belief is kind of like the supporting factors. But I think what gets in the way with belief is that it brings in a lot more human nature. Yeah. So like our belief is affected if a pastor lets us down or a church hurts us or, you know, something bad happens, we lose our job.

01;19;24;19 - 01;19;46;26
Jen
like, all of these outside environment things that can have an effect. Yeah. On our on our faith. But they're actually like human nature things or we are greedy. And now we have, like, we lose our faith because we've been shitty to everyone around us. And now we're like, well, God, why would you do that to me? And it's like, well, know what?

01;19;46;28 - 01;20;00;21
Jen
But if we done. Yeah. and I don't know how if that's a good way to look at it, but just thinking of what's the cause and effect happening between our beliefs and our faith, like how do they tie into each other.

01;20;00;23 - 01;20;01;24
Evan


01;20;01;26 - 01;20;27;16
Jen
And how do we separate what is our own humanness from kind of the holiness. Yeah. Of this idea of faith. Because I think it is not something I think we do use those words somewhat energy enjoyably for most people. And you're not giving the full kind of like power to faith that we could. Yeah. because, you know, we can believe in all kinds of things that have nothing to do with with God.

01;20;27;16 - 01;20;42;17
Jen
Yeah, right. Like I can believe in in you as a. Yeah. Like, I believe you do this or I believe in CrossFit or I believe in Republicans. I don't, you know what I mean? Like, we can believe in what? I don't believe in Democrats either. Good.

01;20;42;19 - 01;20;45;21
Evan
Thomas Massie is my G. Yeah, I've never heard of that guy.

01;20;45;22 - 01;20;53;01
Jen
Politics in general. Right. but there's I don't believe in Democrats either. If that makes you feel better. Any or no trust any.

01;20;53;01 - 01;20;54;19
Evan
Libertarians are insane right now.

01;20;54;27 - 01;21;25;24
Jen
Ever. Everyone. Yeah. but I think we can I think thinking of it that way of like, the human nature. Yeah. Of where we put our beliefs, what we even give that much credit to. and removing that. I think that about like, modern day miracles with people too, like, I don't we don't see it that as much because we're not looking for.

01;21;25;27 - 01;21;49;26
Jen
And we don't have Jesus walking around healing people. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure where I was going. I haven't really think this through, but this idea that of how to how to see the differences, like how to see something as using like what is faith and then what are just like beliefs that you have that are that could then affect your faith if you're let down by those beliefs.

01;21;49;26 - 01;22;11;22
Jen
Right. But those a pastor letting you down at a church or falling from grace, if you will. Yeah. does should not. It might impact your church, your community and really affect a lot of things there. But it should not affect your faith. It should not, hopefully would not affect your relationship with God. Right? Yeah. That makes sense.

01;22;11;22 - 01;22;12;29
Jen
Yeah.

01;22;13;01 - 01;22;17;29
Evan
yeah. I mean, if you look at that, Hebrews 11, passage, the whole chapter is on faith. The first.

01;22;17;29 - 01;22;18;16
Jen
One, it's.

01;22;18;16 - 01;22;20;01
Evan
First verse one, but then actually.

01;22;20;04 - 01;22;20;11
Jen
New.

01;22;20;11 - 01;22;40;10
Evan
Scripture, but then he explains it to the author. So he says, now faith is a reality of what is hoped for. The proof of what is not seen. For by this our ancestors were approved. And that goes on like by faith. We understand that the universe was created by the Word of God. So the sum of what is seen, was made from things that are not visible or not understandable.

01;22;40;12 - 01;23;09;28
Evan
By faith, Abel offered a better sacrifice, and Cain by faith, Enoch was taken away by faith. Noah. But built an ark, you know, in the middle of a desert, you know the. So, Faith, is this, a really great actually, one of the probably the greatest book on faith is Kierkegaard's, Fear and Trembling, where he, where he uses the story of Abraham and Isaac as, as if, if Abraham's faith was any different.

01;23;09;28 - 01;23;34;26
Evan
Right. If Abraham had any sort of different faith of he had more of a faith that we have, then the whole thing would have crumbled, like if his if he was sacked or if he went to sacrifice, Isaac out of any other way, any other method or any other rationalization that was not fully based on his faith in God, then everything would not exist.

01;23;34;26 - 01;23;56;22
Evan
So if he was, say, he gets up there and he doesn't sacrifice Isaac, that means he doesn't actually have faith in God to do whatever God's going to do. Or if he sacrifices Isaac out of fear, right? Fear and trembling out of pure fear, like not holy fear, but fear that oh God might smite me. That's selfishness. That's not actually faith.

01;23;56;24 - 01;24;27;28
Evan
so Abraham had to sacrifice or had to present. He didn't sacrifice Isaac, obviously, but had to present Isaac as a sacrifice in full faith that God is going to do something with us. and so it is abandoning on some level, faith is abandoning, our emotions and our, like our reason, our ability to reason in full trust and confidence that God is going to do something is really what faith is.

01;24;28;00 - 01;24;46;04
Evan
now that's the Abraham. And Isaac is an extreme example, obviously. But, that's just kind of that's why Abraham is known as the father of faith because of of that deal with Isaac. I highly recommend it's not it's not a hard book to read. I mean, it kind of is, but because it was written in what?

01;24;46;04 - 01;24;49;06
Evan
What do Danish people. Right. What would they speak?

01;24;49;08 - 01;24;53;24
Jesse
German like? I'm Dominic Dutch.

01;24;53;28 - 01;25;10;13
Evan
They might speak Dutch. Yeah, I don't know. Sure. Sounds great. What do Danish people speak? What do Danish p p e o p l e p o p l e p peo ple. Know what is.

01;25;10;14 - 01;25;11;02
Jen
This? That's what.

01;25;11;02 - 01;25;14;14
Evan
We had. That's how we learned to spell. People in second grade.

01;25;14;17 - 01;25;17;29
Jesse
PTO didn't work, did it properly?

01;25;17;29 - 01;25;25;15
Evan
P o p spells people. I think that's what is popularly.

01;25;25;17 - 01;25;29;25
Jen
It's gonna take a long time to learn how to spell. If you're learning a jingle for every word.

01;25;29;28 - 01;25;37;07
Evan
they speak Danish, Swedish, Norwegian. That's it.

01;25;37;09 - 01;25;37;27
Jen
Right.

01;25;38;00 - 01;25;56;10
Evan
30, 30. 30. 30, 30, 30. So anyhow, so, And so, Faith, we can look at faith as we are. We have full conf guidance and trust in the workings of God, regardless of the circumstances we find ourselves in currently or will find ourselves in in the future.

01;25;56;11 - 01;25;57;29
Jen
And how many of us actually do that?

01;25;58;03 - 01;26;12;08
Evan
Yeah, zero. Yeah. Which is why Jesus says faith like a mustard seed. You can move mountains. Now, that phrase does not mean literal mountains. There's this Jewish idea that a mountain is an obstacle in your way, so you can move. That obstacle.

01;26;12;10 - 01;26;31;06
Jesse
Is there, like I, I've never thought too much about it, but there's I feel like there is there a major difference between, passive and active faith, like, because it's a lot easier to have passive faith, I can sit there and be like, I'll be fine. You know, God got me. You know it's fine. But when you're, like, called to do something actively in faith, that's a lot crazier.

01;26;31;10 - 01;26;33;05
Evan
Yeah. It's harder. I mean, yeah.

01;26;33;08 - 01;26;53;10
Jesse
Because you're getting you're just doing something. You're like, truly doing something. Sorry. I just was dawning on me because I'm just thinking, like, most of the my upbringing has been a very faith based system. Yeah. my, my family is a very faith based, like, we're all, we're doing this because we, you know, like, they've tried to become missionaries a million times.

01;26;53;11 - 01;27;03;21
Jesse
Yeah. And asking for support and all these things, like stuff that just doesn't ever seem, you know, like it'll happen. Yeah, but, like, actively acting on faith.

01;27;03;23 - 01;27;30;05
Evan
Yeah. Yeah. There. Of course, I mean, yeah. Faith like this idea, like, okay, God's got it that. That I mean, that's a, I think a restricted faith. Right. Because God could be easily calling you into something, you know, drastically different for your life. And, the active component of that would be to embrace that. Yeah. Right. To say, okay, I'm like, God is calling me into this.

01;27;30;05 - 01;27;55;06
Evan
And regardless of the economic fallout that could happen or the, or the fiscal, I guess. Yeah. Or the even the relational fallout that could happen with friends and somewhat family, depending on what the what God's calling you into. Like if if God's calling you to, move, to Cambodia.

01;27;55;09 - 01;27;55;16
Jesse
Or.

01;27;55;16 - 01;28;18;19
Evan
Whatever. Yeah. I mean, that's an act of faith. There could be a selfish act of faith, depending on the motivations there. But, if if God is calling you into something that is deeply difficult, there's going to be fallout of some sort. It might not be like deep like, oh, I hate you because you're moving to London or whatever, but, you're just going to lose relationships naturally.

01;28;18;19 - 01;28;58;24
Evan
Right? In the, in your when you're trying to protect that, that's kind of the, the, the danger there is when you're trying to protect what you have, regardless of what could be. Right. that's kind of the nature of apathy, I think, is the protection of what? But anyhow, so, yeah, I think, what the church has grown to be is simply, an inactive belief, a philosophical, theoretical understanding of God rather than the movement of the Holy Spirit amongst.

01;28;58;24 - 01;29;03;04
Evan
And in the people of God and through the people of God.

01;29;03;09 - 01;29;15;21
Jen
Do you think that's because so many denominations kind of leave the Holy Spirit out of things? That's not like necessarily leave them, but leave it out. But we're not.

01;29;15;23 - 01;29;17;25
Jesse
It's just it's a weird thing to tackle.

01;29;17;25 - 01;29;26;20
Jen
Like we don't there. I, I feel like when we were at our previous church, we barely ever they didn't really talk about the Holy Spirit at all.

01;29;26;21 - 01;29;30;07
Jesse
Because you can't teach about it as a belief. It's a faith thing.

01;29;30;09 - 01;29;31;15
Jen
Because it is so like.

01;29;31;16 - 01;29;34;12
Jesse
I mean, right, it's I mean, that's very strongly why.

01;29;34;14 - 01;29;36;10
Evan
Yeah. You can't understand it.

01;29;36;12 - 01;29;36;21
Jesse
Yeah.

01;29;36;22 - 01;29;37;04
Evan
Like this.

01;29;37;04 - 01;29;39;06
Jesse
Like you just have to. But to just leave.

01;29;39;06 - 01;29;42;16
Jen
Out is huge, right? Like to hear did not.

01;29;42;18 - 01;29;55;27
Evan
Yeah. I mean the Holy Spirit is on that. The Holy Spirit is God and is the active movement of God in the world currently. Yeah. And so to disregard the Holy Spirit is to disregard God. Yeah. Yeah.

01;29;56;02 - 01;30;11;09
Jen
And it it does it does kind of take away the faith piece, a little bit of just being able to say, we just trust that we have faith that God's always moving and not. But we can't really you can't put your finger on it.

01;30;11;09 - 01;30;23;22
Jesse
I know what I mean. I mean, to be clear, I will say like, I've never heard people like avoid it, but there's no like, direct talk of other than like, oh, we believe the Holy Spirit. And then you remember. But yeah, you know, but it's like never like really taught.

01;30;23;23 - 01;30;30;17
Jen
Yeah. We didn't was that when you were here, the Holy Spirit? Seriously, it might have been early days of you.

01;30;30;19 - 01;30;34;05
Evan
Was it during Covid or is it what is the what is the Holy Spirit? Yeah.

01;30;34;05 - 01;30;52;08
Jen
Well, there is that. But we also didn't. Maybe it was with our previous pastor, but we did, I thought that maybe it was just that one, but like, we were we actually spoke about it for several weeks in a row, and then it was there was a lot of people who are like, I've never been in a church that spoke so candidly about the Holy Spirit.

01;30;52;10 - 01;31;04;08
Jen
Which is I mean, I feel like we're doing people a disservice by not talking about it. And I get that for some people it's a little what's the word like.

01;31;04;10 - 01;31;04;26
Evan
It's a little.

01;31;04;26 - 01;31;05;14
Jesse
Like.

01;31;05;16 - 01;31;17;23
Jen
Ghost vibe right. Like other worldly feelings. But that's because that's the way we, we think of it. Right? Is like the, the ghost of like from what's the the Christmas spirit.

01;31;17;26 - 01;31;19;00
Evan
Yeah, yeah. And then, you.

01;31;19;00 - 01;31;22;28
Jen
Know, it's like some weird presence that comes to visit you or something.

01;31;22;28 - 01;31;31;11
Evan
And that's kind of the language. That's why I don't like the language of Holy Ghost, because you're assuming it's like the ghost of Jesus.

01;31;31;11 - 01;31;33;16
Jen
Our human nature pictures a.

01;31;33;23 - 01;31;34;12
Jesse
Haunted by.

01;31;34;12 - 01;31;39;03
Evan
Jesus. Yeah, yeah. You were. That's, I.

01;31;39;03 - 01;31;42;14
Jesse
Mean, it's a little creepy with, like, holes in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01;31;42;16 - 01;32;01;21
Evan
And so, like, the the spirit of God, I mean, the Spirit of God was present from Genesis one, right? In the beginning, God created the heavens, and the earth was formless and void in the spirit was hovering over the surfaces of the deep. And then the Holy Spirit is present in the, in the, the, the Exodus story.

01;32;01;21 - 01;32;26;05
Evan
The Holy Spirit is the, is the being that, that fills the tabernacle or the tent of meeting and then the tabernacle, that leads them in through the wilderness. the Holy Spirit is the presence in the temple. and the Holy Spirit is the active component that activated the church on the day of Pentecost and is in and through.

01;32;26;05 - 01;32;59;06
Evan
I mean, Jesus uses the word lead. I will send you a helper, a Paraclete, this, an advocate, somebody that's there to guide and lead. I think part of the problem with American churches is we've replaced the leadership of the Holy Spirit with the leadership of charismatic leaders. Right. And so when we go off, when we think about, oh, the pastor failed, therefore my faith fails, it's because we actually had faith in the guy talking about things rather than the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

01;32;59;08 - 01;33;35;00
Evan
you know, there's what are the systems and processes of a church? Well, are you listening to Holy Spirit or not? Really. That's God, I was we were talking to our friends this past weekend, about church. And, you know, their church is going through some stuff. And I said, you know, one of the things that I think pastors have to get Ahold of is one, you have to allow people in leading their teams or whatever, or the leaders of the church, not necessarily like not the the standard is are you listening to the Holy Spirit and being guided, and are your decisions being guided by the Holy Spirit, or are they just being guided

01;33;35;00 - 01;33;56;03
Evan
by tasks that need to be done right? And that's the the danger of church leaders. That's a danger of leadership culture in general in the church and the the overemphasis on what it means to be a good leader. And, you know, what's that dude's name? thank you. I always forget that, Maxwell John Maxwell, like, the seven stages of great leadership or whatever.

01;33;56;04 - 01;34;23;00
Evan
Yeah. It's like. Okay. Yeah, that that looks cool, but sells books. But that's not what pastors. That's what that's not what church leaders are called to do. They're called to from an organizational institutional standpoint, create create environments in which people can encounter the Holy Spirit in real, tangible ways. and that cannot be manufactured through emotions. Emotions are part of it.

01;34;23;03 - 01;34;34;02
Evan
and then that's another thing. You can manufacture movement of the Holy Spirit by creating overly emotional Sunday gatherings. Yeah, really. Like, oh, the spirit is moving. No, you just like oceans, right?

01;34;34;03 - 01;34;37;01
Jen
That song just made you feel some type of way. Yeah.

01;34;37;03 - 01;34;38;03
Evan
Or. Yeah.

01;34;38;05 - 01;34;41;24
Jen
That pad in the background really got you. Yeah.

01;34;41;26 - 01;35;12;12
Evan
and all of those, those types of those, those things that churches do. and there's nothing wrong with Creed like creating space that, that that causes vulnerability to happen, right? To create an environment in a somewhat emotional environment that allows you to become receptive to the Holy Spirit or aware of the Holy Spirit, but if you will, you cannot mistake the emotion for the Holy Spirit.

01;35;12;15 - 01;35;38;04
Evan
And I think a lot of times it's like we have 55 minutes because we have four services. We have to manufacture Holy Spirit movement, and we're going to use haze because it kind of feels spiritual. Yeah. You know. and so when, when all of that, when that becomes like the center of our understanding of faith, Holy Spirit movement I guess podcast now become about the Holy Spirit, which is fine.

01;35;38;07 - 01;36;03;17
Evan
But, when that becomes the center of it, of course, of course it's going to crumble. It's bound to crumble. it's bound to when that when that gets ripped out from under you, that I mean, that's the house built on sand that Jesus is talking about at the end of Matthew. Right? That's that's the the thing in which it's it's not there's not the foundation of Christ.

01;36;03;17 - 01;36;37;10
Evan
It's just the foundation of an organization or a charismatic leader or, in a motion rather than, the rock on which the church is built, which is the phrase you are the Messiah, the, the savior of the universe. which is that that is the foundation, if that's the foundation of your church, that belief or that that thing, that doctrine, if you call it, then the faith in that will be able to facilitate growth of the whole or movement of the Holy Spirit a much easier than.

01;36;37;13 - 01;37;05;07
Evan
Oh, yeah, you know, we you know, we have attractive people on stage and they're all smiling and they look joyful, but probably they're not. The, the, the performative aspect of Christianity. yeah. If you read Psalms, I mean like 40% of them are David being a whiny baby, you know, like it's just like he's complaining about something and he's struggling.

01;37;05;08 - 01;37;31;05
Evan
And for some reason the church, we don't allow that to take place. But it's in those moments where, you are able those vulnerable moments is really when you can understand the movement of the Holy Spirit in the and having faith, regardless of circumstance. Again, another thing that the American Church has had a problem with is the influence of if you have faith and life is going to be good.

01;37;31;07 - 01;37;32;01
Jen


01;37;32;03 - 01;37;56;09
Evan
Which is like there's no evidence historically there's. Yeah. There's no evidence historically. Like every great like Christian leader throughout history had immense struggle, immense struggle. I mean Luther got kicked out of the Catholic Church. Bonhoeffer got hung in a concentration camp. I mean, there's like, regardless of the circumstances or whatever hangs.

01;37;56;11 - 01;37;59;21
Jesse
I say you're looking okay. Sorry. It's. I think were.

01;37;59;21 - 01;38;00;07
Evan
Hanged.

01;38;00;10 - 01;38;03;03
Jen
Yeah, yeah. No, I hate when people don't say hung.

01;38;03;05 - 01;38;04;21
Evan
No, I don't care. It's a it's.

01;38;04;28 - 01;38;06;08
Jen
A weird thing that I have an issue.

01;38;06;09 - 01;38;08;16
Evan
You know, he was. I hate it when people say he was.

01;38;08;22 - 01;38;09;06
Jesse
A hung.

01;38;09;06 - 01;38;10;27
Jen
Calendar. Calendar?

01;38;11;03 - 01;38;12;12
Evan
Yeah, right.

01;38;12;14 - 01;38;13;14
Jesse
He's well hanged.

01;38;13;17 - 01;38;14;02
Evan
Yeah.

01;38;14;05 - 01;38;17;01
Jen
No, no, I think it's only when someone kills. Just kidding.

01;38;17;05 - 01;38;23;21
Evan
That that could be like a good, like, dominatrix. Like facility. The well hanged cross.

01;38;23;25 - 01;38;46;14
Jesse
Anyway, so how do we how do we get back into then? obviously, it's a big question of like, how how does the church in America get back into a faith based, system? Like, I don't, you know, like, how do you how do you pull away from the belief, because, again, like, belief is not bad.

01;38;46;19 - 01;38;49;06
Jesse
Yeah. It's not it's not a bad thing to have, but.

01;38;49;06 - 01;39;17;16
Jen
Like, what are you believing in? Like, what are you. You know what I mean? Like, what are you. Is that your. Yeah. What are you putting all of that belief into. You know what I mean? Is it human stuff. Is it is it an organization? Is it or is it like, erring on the side of actual faith, like, yeah, that that trust in God to kind of be over all things and to kind of.

01;39;17;16 - 01;39;21;18
Jen
Yeah. Well, I don't, I don't, I mean, I, I don't know, I'm not sure what that looks like.

01;39;21;18 - 01;39;47;25
Evan
Well, leadership meeting we talked about the glory of God a little bit and what that looks like. And, and one of the things we said, well, what it looks like to not glorify God is loving the gift and not the giver. on the the most basic, and we'll go through this at church at some point. But on the most basic level, we could look at this as we believe in God because he's granting us eternal life.

01;39;47;27 - 01;39;57;26
Evan
And so we are loving the eternal life almost separate from the creator of the universe. Like I believe in God only because he is granting me eternal life.

01;39;57;26 - 01;39;58;17
Jen
Yeah, because.

01;39;58;17 - 01;39;59;14
Jesse
Of what kind of.

01;39;59;16 - 01;40;02;17
Jen
Because I'm. I'm afraid of what would come after.

01;40;02;17 - 01;40;03;09
Evan
Yeah. Yeah.

01;40;03;12 - 01;40;04;26
Jen
Like otherwise. Yeah.

01;40;04;28 - 01;40;26;13
Evan
Rather than the ever I like. That's why I like Everlasting Life or abundant life of like a full life form or language. Then eternal. Which eternal is fine too. There's nothing wrong with that. But the abundance when you have full, when you are aligned fully and you have full, your faith is growing in God, your life becomes more abundant.

01;40;26;20 - 01;40;39;01
Evan
Like there's more meaning. There's more, purpose. Right? We talked about that with the the guy, the book guy. yeah. The rest guy. Whatever. Yeah. Sorry. If you're listening, I can't remember. Greg. Greg.

01;40;39;04 - 01;40;44;20
Jesse
Greg, Gregory, d Hall. Yeah. Gregory d he was like a where's the name? It's in the brain somewhere.

01;40;44;22 - 01;41;07;11
Evan
and so. Right. And so that's kind of the thing. Like, like if we exist to glorify God, if all creation was created for the glory of God, which is also scriptural, for the glory of God, and we exist all human beings, whether you are a Christian or an atheist, you were created for the glory for and by the glory of God.

01;41;07;14 - 01;41;32;27
Evan
Then, then faith begins there. What does it mean to glorify God? How can I rest specifically in that calling and and dismiss as best of my ability on my own? And then to the greater of my ability, by the power of the Holy Spirit, dismiss all of the nonsense in the world around you as, oh, this, this is going to die.

01;41;33;00 - 01;42;01;18
Evan
You know, the Roman Empire, the greatest empire of in all of history, died when a whole bunch of just like Germanic barbarians. This was like, with, you know, leather helmets and spears took over Rome. I mean, it's going to die. the world as we know it today is not going to exist. Probably 300, 400, 500 years, that that would be an irrational expectation for anybody.

01;42;01;20 - 01;42;34;23
Evan
and so if we recognize, like, yeah, you know, this world will pass away at some point and there will be something new in its place, part of Christian understanding, then we could exist fully in our daily lives in a glorifying way that says, you know what? Yeah, today kind of sucked. But yeah, it was just a day, you know, I, you know, when, when Heather and I have, like, or Heather has a bad day or I have a bad day, it's always kind of like, yeah, it was just a day, you know, we're going to go to sleep.

01;42;34;23 - 01;43;04;21
Evan
We're gonna wake up tomorrow. We're gonna have another opportunity to hopefully glorify God in better ways, and to do so in a way that is not based on my own understanding and my own set of belief beliefs. That's all I think. Belief is doctrinal. You believe in a doctrine. You don't have faith in a doctrine you believe in a doctrine similarly that you believe in the scientific method, which is a doctrine of sorts, or you believe in one plus one equals two or whatever, unless you're.

01;43;04;23 - 01;43;05;04
Jesse
Terrence.

01;43;05;05 - 01;43;06;22
Evan
Terrence Howard.

01;43;06;24 - 01;43;07;23
Jen
Is that a new thing?

01;43;07;29 - 01;43;08;13
Jesse
And now it's.

01;43;08;13 - 01;43;12;11
Jen
I think it's like, no, but it is good. This is like the second time in a week I've heard that comment.

01;43;12;12 - 01;43;14;26
Jesse
He's falling apart, man. Terrence is falling.

01;43;14;26 - 01;43;17;06
Jen
Apart because he made the movie crash. Excellent movie.

01;43;17;06 - 01;43;24;14
Evan
But wasn't that the movie that won Best Picture over? There was another movie that should have won. I think that.

01;43;24;14 - 01;43;24;25
Jen
Loved.

01;43;24;25 - 01;43;31;00
Evan
Crash. It's pretty good movie, but I don't think it was the best in 2006. Wherever that movie came out.

01;43;31;01 - 01;43;34;18
Jen
I don't know. I haven't watched it a long time.

01;43;34;20 - 01;43;40;28
Evan
yeah. And then he and I think he really started to fall apart when he denied the paycheck from Iron Man.

01;43;41;00 - 01;43;41;27
Jesse
I was about to say that.

01;43;41;27 - 01;43;43;01
Evan
Oh, he did, yeah.

01;43;43;01 - 01;43;43;19
Jesse
I don't I'm.

01;43;43;21 - 01;43;44;14
Jen
Not up on it.

01;43;44;18 - 01;43;45;18
Jesse
Wasn't he wanting more.

01;43;45;19 - 01;43;47;03
Evan
That he wanted more money.

01;43;47;05 - 01;43;48;26
Jen
So he didn't take any.

01;43;48;28 - 01;43;55;07
Evan
Yeah. So he chose that's. Yeah. So when people do that they're like oh I'd rather not work. I'm like but you know, you're.

01;43;55;07 - 01;43;56;04
Jesse
War machine that.

01;43;56;04 - 01;43;57;02
Jen
He's in the movie.

01;43;57;02 - 01;43;57;27
Jesse
You're a sidekick.

01;43;57;28 - 01;43;59;12
Evan
He was he was, he was.

01;43;59;18 - 01;44;01;04
Jen
I'm not I don't watch all the.

01;44;01;04 - 01;44;01;26
Jesse
War machine, Jen.

01;44;02;01 - 01;44;10;08
Evan
He was. yeah. War machine. So he was like, Tony Stark's best friend. And the first one was replaced by Don Cheadle and the rest. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

01;44;10;08 - 01;44;12;15
Jesse
Who you also like Don Cheadle.

01;44;12;21 - 01;44;13;01
Evan
Who was I?

01;44;13;03 - 01;44;15;14
Jen
You like? I like Don Cheadle better.

01;44;15;14 - 01;44;23;04
Evan
Don't tell Don Cheadle is what? He's way better than Terrence Howard was. But Terrence Howard was good. He was good. Like, side character in the first one. Anyhow. Sorry.

01;44;23;08 - 01;44;24;16
Jen
Yeah. Tangent is not.

01;44;24;16 - 01;44;25;11
Jesse
True.

01;44;25;14 - 01;44;47;28
Evan
And so I think the church like we have to that's one of the reasons why I like we have to get away from altar call Christianity. Now you can have like response like, oh, like I need prayer or I like those things are good. Like come up to the altar for prayer, come up to the altar for, intercession, like prayers of intercession, whatever that is like.

01;44;47;28 - 01;45;13;18
Evan
Those are good things. But altar call as receiving Jesus into your heart, is not. Or raising your hand at the end of a gathering that does not grant you access to eternal life, right? That does not automatically. It might give you a sense of purpose for a short period of time, but the second, things start getting in the way.

01;45;13;21 - 01;45;47;03
Evan
that relationship, that relationship with God, whatever is there will crumble like it has. It doesn't have an ability. It, like, no amount of momentum, like of personal success, in other words, will allow you to bridge or cover up any sort of deficiencies you have. If if your faith is based off of just like this one little event and there's no spiritual growth, there's no intellectual growth, there's no relational growth taking place.

01;45;47;06 - 01;45;48;09
Evan
it's much easier to crumble.

01;45;48;14 - 01;46;23;06
Jen
Yeah. Yeah. I think we just have lost this. The idea of actually just trusting God and having like, full faith we tried is so tightly hold on to our beliefs, our, you know, the things that were, what's the word I want to use? Like the things that we want to control about ourselves, the way people see us, what we believe God can do in our lives, what we believe God is doing in our lives.

01;46;23;06 - 01;46;31;10
Jen
Like there's so many things that are our human natures to control all of those things. Yeah, and like full faith in God requires letting go of a lot of that.

01;46;31;12 - 01;46;32;05
Evan


01;46;32;07 - 01;46;47;10
Jen
Our control over, yeah, our lives in general, but also in what God can do within our lives and, to leave space for that and to not want to hold so tightly to everything.

01;46;47;12 - 01;47;07;29
Evan
Yeah. I mean, you have, just look at the Israelites. I mean, they're the Hebrew people. They're whole. We're we're going we're wrapping up Malachi at church. I mean, in Malachi is I never I may have read it before, but I've never, like, done a deep study. I love it. It's like a it kind of touches all the bases.

01;47;07;29 - 01;47;19;01
Evan
It's like James is like kind of hits on everything. in a very rude and mean way. but the.

01;47;19;04 - 01;47;48;13
Evan
The whole story of the Hebrew people before Christ and even after Christ to a certain extent, was vibrant faith, dwindling faith, abandonment, restoration, vibrant faith, dwindling faith, abandonment, restoration. and you see this in the desert when they're sitting and waiting for Moses to come down from Mount Sinai. They might believe in Yahweh, but they don't have faith that Yahweh is going to do it.

01;47;48;13 - 01;48;11;25
Evan
So what do they do is they build a golden calf and hope that that's going to bring them some sort of favor, with whatever Egyptian gods were influencing them, whatever that. I can't remember what the bull God is. And in Egypt. But yeah. And so there's they didn't actually have a. Yeah, sure. They believed in Yahweh as the supreme God, but they didn't have faith that Yahweh was actually going to do it.

01;48;11;25 - 01;48;37;21
Evan
And because of their impatience and their lack of faith, the result of that was 40 more years of wrestle and struggle. Right. the other thing I don't think we ever necessarily think about in the American church is, legacy. We tend, you know, specifically when we're looking at church from a capitalistic standpoint, we want to see success and results fast and quickly.

01;48;37;21 - 01;49;06;00
Evan
So whatever's going to get us there so we can experience it, too, in the experience is some sort of earthly success. But John Wesley or John Knox, who's the founder of Presbyterianism or Luther, even, you can even go even the apostles, I mean, know like all Christian movements, the founder of those movements were not alive to see them come into their full, full thing, like the Methodist Church was not created by John Wesley.

01;49;06;02 - 01;49;32;07
Evan
Methodist church was created by because of the ideas and theology of John Wesley. More so by, Asbury. Same thing with Luther. Luther wanted to remain Catholic like it's he's he's like, I don't want to leave the Catholic. I just want to reform the Catholic Church. And the Lutheran Church didn't come into existence. So after he was dead, same thing with John Knox and the Presbyterian Church or, I mean, the apostles.

01;49;32;07 - 01;50;09;10
Evan
I mean, there are only two churches that still exist from the first century. There's the the Antioch and Church and the Jerusalem Church. There are in Rome. So three so there are only three churches that exist from the New Testament Rome, Antioch and Jerusalem. The rest of them do no longer exist. well, there are people who live there who go to church, but, you know, so, and so it's we it's trusting in the legacy of God in that, in the legacy that God is going to use us to build upon, not to build his legacy, but to build upon his legacy.

01;50;09;13 - 01;50;23;29
Evan
Do we trust that God is going to use us to build upon that legacy, or do we just trust that? Or do we just believe, no, we have to be successful right now or else it's not going to ever work. and that's where the belief, that's where the American church finds its problem.

01;50;24;02 - 01;50;30;09
Jesse
Yeah. It's built around selfishness. Yeah, yeah, I want to be part of that. Yeah, I want to be early now. I want a desire for success.

01;50;30;09 - 01;50;59;03
Evan
Yeah. I mean, our pastor in Alabama we were talking about this past weekend was I mean, he his whole goal was to be a conference speaker. And you can just tell he'll never admit that. But his whole thing was like, I want to be successful. So I get invited to speak at conferences or I get invited to be, you know, to mentor other church planters or, you know, people want to read my books, which he can, if he have wrote a book, would be awful.

01;50;59;05 - 01;51;03;24
Evan
I kind of want him to so I can read it. Oh, okay.

01;51;03;27 - 01;51;06;12
Jen
so it we're probably at almost time.

01;51;06;15 - 01;51;06;22
Jesse
close.

01;51;06;22 - 01;51;34;02
Jen
To, I'm just wondering, like, what are. Like, not, not action steps, but, like, more so thinking of how can we kind of keep a, a checkpoint of, like, are we leaning into our beliefs or are we leaning into faith? And how do we continuously on the side of faith? And again, not that there's wrong with there's anything wrong with belief.

01;51;34;02 - 01;51;44;14
Jen
It's just like, I think it's easy to lean into the humanness of having beliefs. Yeah, right. And not kind of erring on that side of faith.

01;51;44;14 - 01;52;22;08
Evan
Yeah, yeah. Because belief is part of faith. Yeah. But faith transcends belief. And so I often say, like when I have moments of doubt is I'm, I, I, I'm choosing to have faith even in my, even in my own belief or despite my belief or lack thereof. and so I think you just begin there. Okay. I might not believe this thing or I'm struggling to believe this thing, but I'm going to choose to surrender to my own lack of belief, to a God that may or may not exist in that person's mind.

01;52;22;09 - 01;52;54;29
Evan
Yeah. You know, don't trust your own mind. Essentially. Don't trust your own cognition. your mind will play massive amounts of tricks on you. So just begin there, and then after that, just and keep leaning and keep leaning into that idea. And don't allow yourself to get caught up in persons and people. yeah. It's good to have somebody who can guide you and somebody who could, who you could learn from and who could, hopefully be a good example for.

01;52;54;29 - 01;53;14;20
Evan
But when that person inevitably fails, like just be like, okay, I'm going to choose to still have faith. I'm not going to choose to leave this community that I've invested myself in because that person sucks. That's another problem, right? That person sucks. I can't be a part of this community. No, no, no, there's a whole bunch of other people who are struggling with you.

01;53;14;23 - 01;53;18;27
Evan
It's better to struggle together than to disperse in anger.

01;53;18;29 - 01;53;22;18
Jen
and people suck in general. So it's not that person. It's going to be someone else.

01;53;22;19 - 01;53;24;04
Evan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01;53;24;07 - 01;53;27;29
Jesse
Yeah. I mean, you see that over and over again when people leave churches.

01;53;28;02 - 01;53;29;05
Evan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01;53;29;06 - 01;53;30;29
Jen
That church isn't serving me. Let me leave.

01;53;30;29 - 01;53;34;11
Jesse
And or this person pissed me off. Yeah. I'm done with faith.

01;53;34;16 - 01;53;45;20
Evan
Yeah. Or. Yeah. Or I have this political belief and there are a whole bunch of MAGA weirdos. Yeah. But whatever it's like okay get over yourself. Like it.

01;53;45;24 - 01;53;46;22
Jen
Agree to disagree.

01;53;46;22 - 01;53;54;06
Evan
Literally. Yeah I mean yeah get over yourself. Yeah. There's quite I mean that's harsh but yeah yeah.

01;53;54;08 - 01;53;57;11
Jesse
Yeah that's all right. Jen's going to keep smacking the mic.

01;53;57;11 - 01;54;02;11
Jen
I think it's the way I have it that it's like yeah, everything's fine.

01;54;02;13 - 01;54;06;08
Jesse
Okay, well there you go. don't lose your faith.

01;54;06;10 - 01;54;09;09
Evan
Yeah.

01;54;09;11 - 01;54;13;17
Jesse
anyway, what do we have on the outro anymore? I, I do, I need to say.

01;54;13;18 - 01;54;14;25
Jen
To you all the questions.

01;54;14;25 - 01;54;25;10
Jesse
The questions question your pastor, your church, your faith, your faith, your belief, your belief and versus your faith. Keep asking questions. That it.

01;54;25;15 - 01;54;26;24
Evan
Yeah. You're. Jesse.

01;54;26;27 - 01;54;28;18
Jesse
I'm Jesse, I'm drinking tap water.

01;54;28;18 - 01;54;29;01
Jen
Evan.

01;54;29;01 - 01;54;31;26
Evan
I'm Evan, and here. Jen.

01;54;31;28 - 01;54;32;29
Jesse
And that was Christian.

01;54;32;29 - 01;54;39;01
Unknown
Christian back. For the moment.

01;54;39;04 - 01;54;49;20
Evan
Thanks for listening and joining us on this week's show. If you'd like to support the podcast or just want to buy us a drink as an episode sponsor, check out our website at Christian AF podcast.com.

01;54;49;24 - 01;54;59;16
Jesse
While you're on the site, feel free to send us a message. We appreciate hearing from each one of you. Our hope with this podcast is to develop a community where you can openly question your faith, church beliefs and more.

01;54;59;20 - 01;55;16;03
Jen
Also, don't forget to find and follow us on social media at Christian AV podcast. Share episodes with your friends to help grow our community. We're always looking for question stories or podcasts ideas. You can send these to us via email at Christian AV podcast at gmail.com or through our social media channels. So until next time.

01;55;16;03 - 01;55;17;11
Evan
Stay curious.

01;55;17;11 - 01;55;18;07
Jesse
Stay connected.

01;55;18;07 - 01;55;19;03
Jen
And keep questions.