Episode 108 - DAVID FITCH | Reckoning with Power

In this episode of the Christian AF Podcast, hosts Jen, Jesse, and Evan sit down with David Fitch, an author, professor, and pastor, to discuss his new book, "Reckoning with Power: Why the Church Fails When It's on the Wrong Side of Power." The conversation covers a range of topics including the dynamics of power within the church, the impact of Christian nationalism, and the importance of humility and community in church leadership. Fitch shares insights into his theological journey and the concept of neo-Anabaptism, emphasizing the need for the church to return to a more authentic, grassroots form of community and leadership. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on how the church can navigate the complexities of power in today's world.

EPISODE DRINKING NOTES:

• PAVO REAL - Prairie Street Brewing Co.
  Rockford, IL
  • Mexican Lager | 5.7%
• Undisclosed "Beverage"

RECKONING WITH POWER
http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/reckoning-with-power/389820

DAVID FITCH SUBSTACK
https://davidfitch.substack.com/

Transcript

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Jesse Fox: We got an email that or we got an email that said he joined the meeting

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Jesse Fox: hilarious

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Jesse Fox: Hello.

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Jesse Fox: can you hear us.

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Jesse Fox: oh, he's got everything Muted.

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Jesse Fox: this stuff keeps falling off here

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Jesse Fox: man, i'm, like sweating okay.

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Jesse Fox: are you nervous no, it's kind of warm in this ridiculous.

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Jesse Fox: Now it's nice.

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Jesse Fox: I don't know how to not blackmail these.

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Jesse Fox: You got it out of it.

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Jesse Fox: You left it

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Jesse Fox: there it is.

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Jesse Fox: Check check check!

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Jesse Fox: Forget the oh.

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Jesse Fox: hello!

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David Fitch: Hey, everybody! Can you hear me?

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Jesse Fox: Hey? Yeah, yeah. Can you hear us?

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Jesse Fox: Can you hear us?

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Jesse Fox: Are you? It.

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David Fitch: Alright! Alright! There we are! There we are!

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Jesse Fox: Okay, can you hear us? Okay, now.

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David Fitch: Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Sorry?

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Jesse Fox: I didn't hear you.

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David Fitch: There was an unusual glitch that I've never experienced before.

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David Fitch: There's a little Ok. Button there on the side that

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David Fitch: wouldn't let me do anything until I okayed it. So that's that's a new thing for me.

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Jesse Fox: Shot.

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David Fitch: Do you need me to wear?

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David Fitch: Do you need me to wear

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David Fitch: these

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David Fitch: and plus.

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Jesse Fox: It's up to you.

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Jesse Fox: No, if you can hear us fine, then you're good.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, we're not getting an echo or anything.

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David Fitch: Folks are you in Rockford, Illinois.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. Are, yep.

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David Fitch: Have you ever been to a Rockford ice hogs game before.

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Jesse Fox: Yes, we have.

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David Fitch: All right.

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Jesse Fox: Get there and see.

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David Fitch: That.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, it's a it's a

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Jesse Fox: I think they're are they still playing? This year they were.

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David Fitch: We're doing great.

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Jesse Fox: Well, I think, are they done? Yeah.

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David Fitch: They are done. They got eliminated

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David Fitch: from the playoffs. By the way, I.

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Jesse Fox: I don't keep up on hockey very much so gravy.

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David Fitch: It's okay. It's okay. It's not for everybody.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: I just when I get there, I I just want too much violence. And so I've had to. Not not move forward with that for me, you know.

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David Fitch: If you're an anapaptist

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David Fitch: there's a rule in hockey. I don't know if you know about this, but

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David Fitch: he who retaliates

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David Fitch: gets in the penalty box, and to me.

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Jesse Fox: Thanks. Yeah.

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David Fitch: Assistant.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: A spism.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. What's up? Well, thanks for joining us. We appreciate this.

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Jesse Fox: We're excited.

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David Fitch: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: To chat.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, so do you have? Do you have any drinks with you or not? So much? You had wine, you did. I didn't see it. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: lovely. Okay. So we usually just start ours talking about what we're all drinking, really, briefly.

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Jesse Fox: and then we'll just get into it. But.

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David Fitch: Hey!

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Jesse Fox: Totally normal. If you're if you're okay with that, if you're okay with that.

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David Fitch: Yeah, Simon, I'm okay with it. I'll probably be

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David Fitch: a little careful, because, I'm ordained in a denomination where you

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David Fitch: where you weren't allowed to drink until like 10 years ago.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah.

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David Fitch: And there's a lot of old codgers around hunting for my skin. So.

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Jesse Fox: Well, if you want to. If you want to change whatever you're drinking, you're welcome to or like not change it. But you don't have to do that part. It's non video. It's audio. Only so.

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David Fitch: Okay. Alright. Well, who makes it?

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Jesse Fox: Sir!

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David Fitch: If I say something like, yeah, I believe I'm only taking one drink. And then

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David Fitch: my wife comes in here and says, Oh, yeah, right? Okay.

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Jesse Fox: Thank you.

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David Fitch: And if my mother hears that I it won't go over well, but anyway, she doesn't listen.

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David Fitch: She's 96 years old, and she doesn't even know what a podcast is. So.

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Jesse Fox: There you go, perfect. I'm always worried about my parents finding this podcast too. So that's why

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Jesse Fox: the name alone, you know, would be enough for most, so alright! Do you want to

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Jesse Fox: just kick it off? Yeah. So at the.

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David Fitch: And ace before we start.

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Jesse Fox: Oh, yeah, yes, I'm Jen.

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David Fitch: Jen.

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Jesse Fox: This is Jesse. I'm Jesse Jesse.

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David Fitch: Jen Evan see Evan.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

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Jesse Fox: yeah. So I, at the end of this, we'll probably fake. Hang up with you just for the sake of the

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Jesse Fox: the audio.

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Jesse Fox: and then we'll just like actually sign off with you in a second. So just, or if you hang up, then we won't, it's whatever. But just so, you know. That's the goal.

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David Fitch: Yeah.

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David Fitch: Yep.

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Jesse Fox: Right!

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David Fitch: And who's the audience here, Evan?

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Jesse Fox: What's that?

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David Fitch: Who is the audience?

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, odd

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Jesse Fox: people. The podcast is Christian, Af is the name of it. And we talk a lot about deconstruction, reconstruction, the kind of the tough theology questions. People don't like to talk about topics. We usually say, we're just deconstruction is podcast but it. We also don't fully buy into full deconstruction. So we've retitled it. Reconstruction of the phase.

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David Fitch: Nice, nice, nice, nice.

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Jesse Fox: That's the general theme. Yeah, it's a lot of taboo topics.

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David Fitch: I'm game for all that stuff. I love it.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, lovely. We'll probably talk a good bit about

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Jesse Fox: Do? Well, the book out your newest book, obviously. But you also have some fun ties to grassroots our church so, and Evan. So we'll probably talk a little bit about that with Tiffany stamen. And those guys so

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David Fitch: Well, you actually.

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Jesse Fox: Been to grassroots. I don't know if you remember that, but.

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David Fitch: And the grass roots and.

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Jesse Fox: And Heinz.

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David Fitch: Dan Hines, former student. Yeah, it's all.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, so he was our. He was our old pastor a long time ago. He started the church with us, and then, now Evan is. Is the the pastor here? Well, we'll get into it, but we'll start off, and then we'll we'll just see where things go. We're not very structured, so feel free to interject, and wherever the conversation takes us is great.

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Jesse Fox: we're not a

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Jesse Fox: wherever we go we go, so.

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David Fitch: Got it. I got it wherever.

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Jesse Fox: Okay. Oh.

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David Fitch: We go.

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Jesse Fox: Wherever we go we go.

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Jesse Fox: Oh, right

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Jesse Fox: welcome to the Christian Af, podcast very coalty of you, too. We also welcome together, not me. That's a that's a community. Welcome. Yeah. Today we are here with, David Fitch.

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Jesse Fox: who is an author, professor, pastor, thinker, provocateur.

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Jesse Fox: Whatever other adjective you want, and specifically talking about his new book.

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Jesse Fox: as well as amongst other things called reckoning with power. And I don't remember what's what's the tagline on that the

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Jesse Fox: when the church

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Jesse Fox: I can't see it.

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David Fitch: I got it. I got it. I got it. Why, the church fails when it's on the wrong side of power.

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David Fitch: By the way. I can't even remember it.

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Jesse Fox: Yes, we. He had to pick up his own book and read it off of the

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Jesse Fox: the front there. Yeah, so he is.

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Jesse Fox: yeah. So he was written a few other books, Faithful presence, which is a great one. A little booklet called About 7 Practices for the Church on mission, the Church of us versus them. But this new one is, I think, poignant, and it's in a good, a good moment in specifically American Christianity, and so welcome.

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Jesse Fox: David Fitch. So oh, wait, we forgot. Where are we? I'm we're drinking. This is so weird. Okay, anyway, we're we're drinking the Pavel real that we were drinking last episode. Nothing really special. I have a model negro from where

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Jesse Fox: modello modell nice, alright.

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David Fitch: Those.

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Jesse Fox: Yes, hey?

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David Fitch: Are any of those beers for.

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Jesse Fox: Is, that.

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David Fitch: Rockford.

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David Fitch: Illinois.

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David Fitch: -Oh!

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David Fitch: That's a book.

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Jesse Fox: Oh, sorry about that.

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Jesse Fox: He was about to say that he had a drink, and then the zoom crashed.

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David Fitch: Supernatural powers were at work

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: yeah, hold on. We're working on it.

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Jesse Fox: That was weird. We're back. We're back. Weird. Zoom doesn't like to start the recording again.

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Jesse Fox: For his part, no, okay, so we'll we'll just jump in at the drinks, I know. But is that recording him? Yeah, it should be recording recorded.

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Jesse Fox: Sorry about that. We're back zoom part.

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David Fitch: Problem.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, it's up there. It's recording. Anyway.

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Jesse Fox: we're back. Okay. So we today are drinking Paabo, real Mexican logger from prairie. She's brewing. And I have modelo negro also, or negra. Sorry that was bad. Also, Mexican logger technically.

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David Fitch: So these folks can I interrupt? I'd like to know a little bit more about these beer.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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David Fitch: you said they're Mexican beers, so I assume that means they're not native to Rockford, Illinois.

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Jesse Fox: One is. Yeah. The the Pavo real is that's from Prairie Street Brewing Company, actually, where our church met for many years made by a German man.

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David Fitch: It's Mexican here.

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Jesse Fox: His last. He's wedding. Oh, he's not German.

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David Fitch: Okay.

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David Fitch: Well.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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David Fitch: I'm glad we got.

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Jesse Fox: Odello is like a a a big brewery. It's not a not small, exciting beer. It's just what I had, just what I had, nothing exciting.

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David Fitch: Like light beer. Folks I hate to like spoil your party.

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David Fitch: But yeah.

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Jesse Fox: These are basically that one's basically a license. Here's a yeah light logger. You might like it. Nothing crazy.

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Jesse Fox: It's delicious.

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Jesse Fox: So.

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David Fitch: Time I'm in.

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Jesse Fox: You for joining.

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David Fitch: And give it a try,

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Jesse Fox: Come on, come on down.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. So I think we had. I think we briefly talked about it. But years ago I think we may have met you at our church

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Jesse Fox: when it was in the the very, very early stages we were meeting at a coffee shop.

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Jesse Fox: and I, from what I understand you did come. My brain doesn't remember half of that stuff, cause it was years ago, and we were just a crazy, small little community at the time. But

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Jesse Fox: yeah, down in Rockford.

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Jesse Fox: So over and up, over and up, I don't know. You're like we're in Chicago. Yeah.

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David Fitch: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: So.

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Jesse Fox: so

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Jesse Fox: David Fitch, how about you? Tell us a little bit about I've noticed you. You consider yourself. Let's just begin. We're gonna dive in, I guess. You consider yourself a neo Anabaptist Holiness Pentecostal, Evangelical.

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David Fitch: Right and and.

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Jesse Fox: Does that mean.

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David Fitch: And the last one is precarious, evangelical, just because of the way the words gotten

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David Fitch: pretty beat up. But no neo Anabaptist, is this incredible stream

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David Fitch: of theology that flows off the Anabaptist movement that nobody knows about, especially

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David Fitch: quote unquote Evangelicals and.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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David Fitch: It really assumes a different posture in the world. It assumes

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David Fitch: a minority disenfranchised

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David Fitch: posture in the world, because Anabaptists, you know, back 500 years ago, and and next year is the anniversary of the first

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David Fitch: baptism in Zurich of the Anabaptist. 500 years ago they were rejecting state magisterial Christianity run by the State and the culture. They were saying, we gotta be a way of life. We gotta have a real way of living

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David Fitch: in in discipleship with Jesus as Lord of our lives. So it's it's it just works through those themes of discipleship, kingdom, non violence is the way of the kingdom of Empire.

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David Fitch: nonviolence, presence, the way God works in the world through His spirit by reconciliation, renewal, healing.

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David Fitch: Hold on 1 s, Max. Keep it down. Okay. That was my son. Folks I'm sorry about.

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Jesse Fox: You did. But you're fine.

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David Fitch: But

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David Fitch: and he's still a teenager. He's 19, and he does some things and makes some sounds which folks I hope you didn't hear. But anyways all that to say

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David Fitch: neo anabaptism is the is the movement into contemporary cultural issues of language, construle of self post structural is called subjectivity power. All these issues. And and it takes cultural engagement into a whole new world.

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David Fitch: whole new way of of doing it, but not through the ways of establishment of. We have power in this culture. For all those reasons I love neo anabapt thought for our time.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. And I would. Yeah, cause you would probably think

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Jesse Fox: you think of Anabaptist, me and most people's brains obviously go to Mennonites. Amish.

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Jesse Fox: What, brethren, maybe some form of brethren.

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David Fitch: Yes, all those nominations are historic, just denominations. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: And they, I think the first thing at least that comes to my mind is

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Jesse Fox: kind of mutually participatory community.

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David Fitch: That's a nice phrase. I like that a lot. Mutual participation.

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Jesse Fox: Use it, feel free. Kim. Next book next book 15.

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David Fitch: Feel that from you.

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David Fitch: Still, it's not.

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Jesse Fox: A solid title, I'm sure.

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David Fitch: Actually a little too thick for a good time.

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Jesse Fox: A little mixed guy. Yeah.

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David Fitch: Little subtext in the book. It would be good. Yeah, but I think got it there. Dude? We are not run

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David Fitch: by hierarchies, patriarchies. Jesus is Lord, and He doesn't work through power over. He's the one who comes among us, and through mutual life together, the the authority and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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David Fitch: God does a new thing amongst the people, and it's a totally different thing than the way the world operates, and that's kind of what? We're all shooting for us. Who are Neil and a Baptist? I'm I'm holiness and meaning, I believe. I'm I'm a Wesleyan, not a

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David Fitch: not a Calvinist. I I believe in pervenent grace the way God works to bring us to Himself. I'm a Pentecostal, I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, and all that means for the way he works in the world, not just in our inner souls. To help us speak in tongues

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David Fitch: is much more than that, so that describes kind of my theological journey, so to speak.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: And

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Jesse Fox: the the holiness thing is.

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Jesse Fox: yeah. I was thinking about this actually, the other day, because we're we as a church. We're in the beginning early, early stages of affiliating with free Methodism, and I grew up.

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David Fitch: Recommended. I highly recommend the free method, at least the history of the Free Methodists. Like all of us in denominations, they all got problems, big ones. But

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David Fitch: we need a history, and we need a people to to work out our lives with, not just be a little isolated colt on the river there on the Rock River in Rockford.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: yeah, yeah. And so,

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Jesse Fox: because you find, I think you find in holiness movements, or it's Free Methodism, the Salvation Army, which is what I grew up in or other, I don't know who else is holiness.

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David Fitch: Wesleyan.

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Jesse Fox: Missionary lines.

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David Fitch: Missionary Alliance. The Nazarene Church assemblies have got some respects. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: And but I was thinking about this the other day about,

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Jesse Fox: kind of reviving holiness

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Jesse Fox: in to use your neo, anabaptist, language, a neo holiness movement like, one that because, you know, growing up in the Salvation Army, we always were holiness, but it became more moralistic.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, than holy, so moral morality or moralism

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Jesse Fox: was an avenue to gain holiness which obviously doesn't work. But yes, anyhow, that's just what I was thinking.

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David Fitch: Yeah. And and so that happens a lot because

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David Fitch: we want to like

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David Fitch: human beings

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David Fitch: caught up in ourselves, we want to control

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David Fitch: and to control. We have to have rules and to control. We have to have

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David Fitch: boundary markers. And

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David Fitch: and

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David Fitch: but but if we just sit with one another, how? How many know if if you happen to be married and you got kids, how many know the rules? Don't work with the kids, hey? Don't do that they walk out the door. And they do that. Okay, we have to have space to help us understand what God is calling and doing in us to be true

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David Fitch: to being a human being, and to being a loving human being, and and a flourishing human being in the kingdom of God, and that that just takes a little conversation as opposed to rules, you know. Rules. I might might help you for like a week or 2, but if you don't catch what the rules are about. You're gonna go off the rails fast.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah.

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Jesse Fox: And so, were you, or are you ordained in the

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Jesse Fox: missionary alliance? Then.

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David Fitch: Christian mission airlines. Yes.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah, little.

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David Fitch: To his.

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Jesse Fox: Simpson and.

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David Fitch: That's right. That's right. Deeper life and

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David Fitch: and healing and all those good things. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny. We we vacation every year in Old Orchard Beach, Maine.

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David Fitch: Do you really.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. Yup, and I drive my kids past the the place where they all had their first little discussion

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Jesse Fox: about

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Jesse Fox: creating a new movement.

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Jesse Fox: I think the original church is now a pizza place in New York. I believe. I think it's a pizza point.

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David Fitch: I have been there many times. My father was the last second to last baby, dedicated by Ab. Simpson himself.

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Jesse Fox: What?

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David Fitch: Church in that pizza parlor right there.

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Jesse Fox: In the pizza parlor. Yeah.

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David Fitch: Yeah, well, that's actually.

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Jesse Fox: Pretty, awesome.

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David Fitch: It was a church back. But yeah.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, there's so you could it?

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David Fitch: It's actually more cool to say my dad was

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David Fitch: was dedicated in a pizza parlor. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: It is. Yeah.

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Jesse Fox: So reckoning with power.

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Jesse Fox: What? What drove you to write this book at this time? In this moment.

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David Fitch: Oh, this has been percolating for many, many, many years. I mean I I'm a man in my sixties, but

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David Fitch: the issue of power has been.

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David Fitch: It's just been coming up over and over again. I've been in the ministry for about 30 years.

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David Fitch: and the issue of power is a big one for anybody who's gotta

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David Fitch: lead a church, I mean, because and so that was 30 years ago. But and, by the way, my dad was a pastor. So I saw all the pitfalls, all the problems

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David Fitch: of power, or or the way he would.

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David Fitch: he would manage himself, posture himself.

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David Fitch: My dad was quite a humble guy, but he still got accused of this or that, or whatever and and it's just like everywhere you go, the the potholes that you can walk yourself into around power are there?

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David Fitch: But now, in the last 1510, 15 years.

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David Fitch: and it's only gotten worse. The more recent.

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David Fitch: We've had so many pastors, so many leaders, prominent leaders

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David Fitch: just get totally destroyed

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David Fitch: by their by their power trips

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David Fitch: they become abusers of all kinds.

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David Fitch: abusers, financially abusers, sexually abusers just bullies.

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David Fitch: I don't.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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David Fitch: It's just bewildering. And then

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David Fitch: and then their churches fall apart. It's like, how could this be happening?

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David Fitch: Over and over and over and over again, and to me the the issue is

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David Fitch: that the Evangelical Church, where most of these pastors are.

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David Fitch: have become absorbed by I'll even go drunk with

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David Fitch: power

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David Fitch: and power went off the rails. I had to sort that out, and you add the the other complexities of how

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David Fitch: I don't even know if and call me Evangelicals. But the the majority, the the people, the the people that call themselves white Evangelicals, who think trump, can now save a Christian America. This is in alignment with power of the worst kind, and people are leaving the church in droves because of it. So we got power problems everywhere. We look as Christians in North America. And so I finally like

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David Fitch: started to put every all the notes from the last 20 years, and and try to simplify it, and make it readable.

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David Fitch: and and engage these issues in the ways that the Lord has been working in my life and and sorting this stuff out.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah,

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Jesse Fox: so I

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Jesse Fox: is, yeah, it's really interesting. Because I think I I've noticed in the past few years a lot of

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Jesse Fox: authors or Christian pastors have been wrestling with

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Jesse Fox: and on some level wrestling with whether they call a power or leadership. There's been a few books that's talking about kind of lead, cause, you know, in the 2 thousands, like every every seminary, had to have, like a leadership degree of some sort. It seemed like for a while. Would you say those 2 things are

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Jesse Fox: aligned or parallel at the very least, or do they intersect or.

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David Fitch: well, for sure cause, cause leaders.

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David Fitch: I know there's 1 one word translated as leader

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David Fitch: in the Epistles, but Leader is not even in in the Scripture.

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David Fitch: At least in the way we think about leadership.

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David Fitch: And so yeah, I mean this, this is

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David Fitch: folks

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David Fitch: I know so many good good in this case. Men

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David Fitch: alright. They all turned out to be men.

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David Fitch: but women are susceptible.

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David Fitch: Okay? So.

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Jesse Fox: But.

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David Fitch: But but man

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David Fitch: that were loving Jesus started out so well.

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David Fitch: really gave their lives to serving Jesus as Lord.

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David Fitch: They got a little bit of success.

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David Fitch: They thought they figured out what to do

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David Fitch: somewhere around year 15 or 20, they said, Hey, I'm the one doing this. This is me.

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David Fitch: God's using me. I'm now.

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David Fitch: I'm now acting on behalf of God.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, and and.

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David Fitch: And and I can now play God, and before you know it, everything goes off the rails.

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David Fitch: When you align worldly power over.

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David Fitch: I use this in in the book. I use the story of Mark Driscoll perfect example of this, but I know so many men who were good men

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David Fitch: who went off the rails and did some dastardly things, because it just gets in your head.

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David Fitch: Andrew Yang with huber syndrome. It messes with your mind yourself. People ask, how could John Vanier do that? How could these men go off the wall? It's because it's an insidious sickness.

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David Fitch: and and once you give yourself over to it you end up becoming very, very first of all blind to it. But second, of all, sick human beings capable of doing things. Because why? I'm doing it for God.

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David Fitch: I'm person. I'm firing this person. I'm treating this person like I'm abuse. I can even sexually abuse somebody. Why? Because I'm doing everything I'm doing forgot. And I need a little

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David Fitch: mental relief or something, whatever excuse they make up.

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David Fitch: This is how it goes, folks, and and we gotta call it what it is and try to discern it.

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David Fitch: There's no getting putting a Band-aid over it.

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David Fitch: We have got to distinguish between the way God's power works, which is never power over.

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David Fitch: and godly power and worldly power which is always power over. And that's not the way God works in His Church.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you use the concept. I like that. The power over versus power under

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Jesse Fox: right.

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David Fitch: Yeah, it's actually.

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Jesse Fox: And.

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David Fitch: With. But the posture to get with power with is, you have to come under

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David Fitch: another power, the power of God. You can't control God, ladies and gentlemen, out there in podcast land. If you're thinking, control the power of God, it ain't God, it's you

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David Fitch: okay. But so you have to recognize another power, and come under God's power

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David Fitch: to discern His power, and then cooperate with God's power. And that's a different posture than taking control of power over.

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David Fitch: Do you get what I'm saying, Evan?

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Jesse Fox: Yeah, I do. I do. I do. I grew up in the evangelical world

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Jesse Fox: for a long time before we we switched churches.

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Jesse Fox: But I feel like a lot of the stuff that I grew up in, and people around us often use the whole mentality kind of what you were hinting at is.

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Jesse Fox: we're Christians. So

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Jesse Fox: I I am okay with using this power because I am ordained, or I'm called by God to do this kind of stuff.

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Jesse Fox: you know, floating it over people basically saying, Well, we have the right to do that because we are God's people.

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Jesse Fox: you know that, and maybe not so directly spoken. But it's definitely a thing that I saw very often.

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Jesse Fox: How do you? Because it's always like little baby steps into that it's not like, well, just an immediate switch

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Jesse Fox: into insanity, you know, it's it's a slow move.

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Jesse Fox: But like, how do we be aware of that going? Because a lot of the stuff. I think most of the people that had that mentality were never

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Jesse Fox: coming at it from that perspective in their head. It was a very

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Jesse Fox: slow move into that.

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Jesse Fox: But how do we start recognizing that as a culture in the church world.

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Jesse Fox: knowing that power is there? Cause I I don't think I'd always go back and say it was about power. It's not about power, you know, and that's but looking through half the book you wrote, I mean, it really does trickle back to power unintentionally.

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Jesse Fox: But, like, how do we avoid that? That mentality of like.

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Jesse Fox: well, we are God's people. And you know. Yeah, the law says this. But you know, you know, yeah, like, I would hear that stuff constantly. It was.

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David Fitch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I.

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David Fitch: first thing, I I mean, the main point of the book is.

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David Fitch: there are 2 powers that work in the world largely because of sin.

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David Fitch: And we need to distinguish between the 2, and there will be done so worldly powers. Power over

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David Fitch: godly power is power with which we got to come under to discern and cooperate with

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David Fitch: 2 different powers. And so the first thing we got to learn is to discern between the 2 powers.

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David Fitch: I I say, I say a couple of things about that. If you.

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David Fitch: if you use power over in the name of God, it's very dangerous, because

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David Fitch: all of a sudden you get permission to do whatever you think you gotta do in coercive ways.

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David Fitch: and you have permission, because you're doing it for God. And and more people are coming to Christ, and more people are entering into the seats, and more people are giving money, and it's all for Jesus. How dare you question me?

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David Fitch: And and that's the danger of melding the 2 together. The other thing that happens, though, is when we use worldly power, efficiency techniques, business leadership, principles, blah blah blah. We squeeze out

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David Fitch: space for God's power to work in our lives because God is a God of love. He is not a God of coercion.

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David Fitch: Don't get me wrong. He's a sovereign God, but he chooses to enter our world and work in cooperation with human beings who may. Who say you are lord of my life, I'm going to let you use me, and and so we squ by by by, by not discerning the 2 powers we squeeze out. We do not make space for God to work in our churches, in our neighborhoods, in our lives, and those are the dangers? So the first answer your question.

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David Fitch: Jesse, is

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David Fitch: discern between the 2 powers, and there is a there's a posture shift, and you know there's no

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David Fitch: there's no like

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David Fitch: like diagnosis diagnosis sheet I can give you with. Here's 10 things to look for.

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David Fitch: but I but I if I tried. I maybe could come up with that. But

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David Fitch: you know, when you see it, you know it. Yeah, when you smell. Oh, that person is posturing

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David Fitch: themselves over.

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Jesse Fox: Yeah. Up.

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David Fitch: Or they're using power over to get something done, or they're not listening right now, and I've been talking for the last 10 min.

388
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David Fitch: and they haven't heard a word. I say, okay, and all I'm saying is, check our postures. First of all, the other thing I say in the book is anytime violence breaks out anytime.

389
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:25.620
Jesse Fox: Hmm.

390
00:31:25.620 --> 00:31:30.140
David Fitch: Violence. That's a sign of worldly power going off the rails.

391
00:31:31.210 --> 00:31:39.269
Jesse Fox: Yeah. Yeah. I used to work in a church in Alabama, and I walk in like early. They might have been like a Thursday

392
00:31:39.722 --> 00:31:43.819
Jesse Fox: to one of my best buddies and the lead pastor

393
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:49.379
Jesse Fox: in the nursery room like cussing each other out for all to hear.

394
00:31:50.210 --> 00:31:52.670
Jesse Fox: and I kind of walk in. I'm like what's going on.

395
00:31:52.730 --> 00:32:01.129
Jesse Fox: They're like, well, you know, Dusty and the I won't say the pastor's name, the pastor or well, no, dusty is not the past, my friend?

396
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:20.069
Jesse Fox: they're arguing over what music can be played on Sunday or whatever. So I you know I so I had to go in and cuss the pastor out about him, cussing dusty out. So yeah, but you see that. And that happened quickly. That was only like a

397
00:32:20.260 --> 00:32:22.980
Jesse Fox: the third year of our church being in existence.

398
00:32:23.528 --> 00:32:26.110
Jesse Fox: Where you started to see the power

399
00:32:26.520 --> 00:32:29.590
Jesse Fox: dynamic that begin to play.

400
00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:30.620
Jesse Fox: Really.

401
00:32:30.840 --> 00:32:36.579
Jesse Fox: now that happens, I think a lot of churches might take a little bit longer like. I don't think Driscoll was

402
00:32:36.730 --> 00:32:38.200
Jesse Fox: what we know

403
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:39.780
Jesse Fox: of him now.

404
00:32:39.810 --> 00:32:43.429
Jesse Fox: you know, in 90 95, or whatever, whenever they started that church.

405
00:32:43.430 --> 00:32:44.180
David Fitch: He was not.

406
00:32:44.180 --> 00:32:45.269
Jesse Fox: Then over time.

407
00:32:45.550 --> 00:32:47.020
David Fitch: He was a different person.

408
00:32:47.530 --> 00:32:48.350
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

409
00:32:48.666 --> 00:32:56.579
David Fitch: If you listen to the way he talked about power, the way he talked about the Ministry. Different person, those first 2, 3, 4 years.

410
00:32:56.850 --> 00:32:57.660
David Fitch: Yeah.

411
00:32:58.500 --> 00:32:59.270
Jesse Fox: Man?

412
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:01.890
Jesse Fox: So when we

413
00:33:02.510 --> 00:33:04.119
Jesse Fox: when do you think?

414
00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:12.469
Jesse Fox: When do you think this became? I mean, there's the Christendom of yeah, kind of the Middle Ages, and one, you know, once Rome

415
00:33:12.570 --> 00:33:28.723
Jesse Fox: kind of allowed Christianity to happen. Would that be kind of when power started, be when the Church became power hungry? Or can you go back to even the apostolic fathers? Maybe there's a difference between. Say, Paul, and I don't know Ignatius or to I don't know whoever but

416
00:33:29.510 --> 00:33:31.430
Jesse Fox: like, when do you think cause you don't see?

417
00:33:31.610 --> 00:33:44.159
Jesse Fox: You don't see Paul being power, but the you kind of see it in the subsequent generations a little bit, and how that at least, how they organized church. But when do you think the power hungry Christianity became a thing.

418
00:33:44.320 --> 00:33:46.029
David Fitch: Well, you know

419
00:33:46.060 --> 00:33:54.100
David Fitch: us Anabaptists located the first time the first big mistake as Constantine.

420
00:33:54.180 --> 00:34:20.529
David Fitch: and the Bap. When Constantine got saved according, and he became the Christian Roman Empire, and not only the edict of Milan tolerating the Church, but soon through 70 years later, Theodosius, it became the sponsored church, so that almost everybody who wanted anything in Rome had to become a Christian. Okay, so that's that's like the

421
00:34:20.630 --> 00:34:24.050
David Fitch: bold, bold line, you know.

422
00:34:24.060 --> 00:34:28.549
David Fitch: flat out alignment of the Church and Christianity with

423
00:34:29.130 --> 00:34:31.330
David Fitch: power power over with

424
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.540
David Fitch: worldly power.

425
00:34:34.409 --> 00:34:35.250
David Fitch: I.

426
00:34:35.330 --> 00:34:39.460
David Fitch: The Apostle Paul, was a great example of how the apostolic gift

427
00:34:39.480 --> 00:35:09.470
David Fitch: is a gift of leadership, but it is not power over, and Tim Gombas has a I think it's the title of his book is power and weakness, where he goes through all the Pauline writings, and shows how this guy shared in mutuality and in and the power and the press, you know I gave up all things that I might know the power of the resurrection. I came not in power of wisdom, but in the power of weakness, and first Corinthians to over and over and over again.

428
00:35:10.195 --> 00:35:12.250
David Fitch: But something changed

429
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.060
David Fitch: where we were became acceptable.

430
00:35:15.410 --> 00:35:21.469
David Fitch: to align with power and get things done faster, more furious. And I gotta be nice

431
00:35:21.670 --> 00:35:25.110
David Fitch: to the Roman Catholic Church which formed out of that, because.

432
00:35:25.540 --> 00:35:40.780
David Fitch: you know, they had 75 million new Christians in the course of about 70 years. I mean, it went from like under a million does. I mean they had to organize what I so I'm not. I'm not getting down on anybody. But the fact is, we've been struggling with this

433
00:35:41.000 --> 00:36:04.150
David Fitch: ever since I got a whole chapter. That shows, you know, we, we, Christianity becomes popular, achieves much in a culture, and then it aligns with power, and then it falls apart, and we have to distinguish between the 2 powers all over again, and the mistakes made, and then once again we do it all over again, and I think maybe right now in the United States.

434
00:36:04.690 --> 00:36:25.859
David Fitch: Canada, but probably United States more than Canada. I think that's where we're going. We are. The church is getting destroyed under its the weight of its own power, both in terms of Christian nationalism and in and in the the ego, maniacal pastors who are becoming abusers. And we're gonna have to get back to being the people of God

435
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:28.729
David Fitch: on the ground. That's where I'm at.

436
00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:31.634
Jesse Fox: That's what I was gonna bring up is

437
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:38.623
Jesse Fox: we're all on leadership at our church. So I think, like this concept of power. And

438
00:36:39.380 --> 00:36:42.300
Jesse Fox: really being aware of where those

439
00:36:44.570 --> 00:36:48.780
Jesse Fox: footholds could be like, what? Where we could be false, susceptible to

440
00:36:48.790 --> 00:36:53.229
Jesse Fox: that power, that worldly power, and not but I think

441
00:36:53.350 --> 00:36:59.089
Jesse Fox: if you read the book like that's very, I think, as leaders, it really makes a lot of sense to me how

442
00:36:59.220 --> 00:37:14.639
Jesse Fox: slippery of a slope. This this need, or like human draw towards power, can be. But I think we have a lot of people who listen to this, who aren't in leadership. And so I I wanted to kind of talk about what

443
00:37:15.160 --> 00:37:19.821
Jesse Fox: if we're part of? If we have people listening who are just part of a community that maybe

444
00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:29.050
Jesse Fox: seems healthy or seems that there's no major power issues going on. How can we a continue that like

445
00:37:29.408 --> 00:37:41.249
Jesse Fox: continue to feed into something that is like you're saying like, if we're, we're almost at this point of potentially everything being torn down. And we're kind of starting over. How can we not let

446
00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:57.630
Jesse Fox: power seep into that? That worldly power like? How can we lean into this kind of coming from underneath approach? We I we really like application like not application, because we can't fix most things. But how can we

447
00:37:58.125 --> 00:38:16.559
Jesse Fox: apply this to ourselves as we try to grow communities or to honestly like rework. What church looks like going into the next, you know. Few decades, because we're kind of at that point. I we feel that, too, like the people that are showing up on Sundays want something that looks different.

448
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.218
Jesse Fox: that are people that are pouring into communities want something that looks different than what we've been seeing.

449
00:38:22.570 --> 00:38:25.350
Jesse Fox: and what we're watching fall apart in a lot of places. I think.

450
00:38:25.350 --> 00:38:28.684
David Fitch: Yeah, yeah, I mean, great question.

451
00:38:29.500 --> 00:38:30.375
David Fitch: Jen.

452
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:40.649
David Fitch: there, there are so many I like, I like the way you use the word slippery slope. Everywhere you turn. It's another slippery slope. But I do think that we can start

453
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:42.219
David Fitch: with ourselves

454
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:43.840
David Fitch: who are leaders

455
00:38:43.940 --> 00:38:46.620
David Fitch: and practice the presence of Christ

456
00:38:46.680 --> 00:39:11.230
David Fitch: in our lives and the way we engage people, and this will always take a signature marking of humility in our lives, humility in the way we preach. Now, I'm not saying you have to be boring when when you preach, or or you can't be dynamic when you preach. But you gotta be with people, not over people. Do you know what I'm you know what I'm talking about? When a preacher starts talking over people.

457
00:39:11.230 --> 00:39:11.650
Jesse Fox: Oh, yeah.

458
00:39:11.650 --> 00:39:28.560
David Fitch: Them what to do as opposed to discerning the text and preaching gospel with people. This is so subtle, folks, but what what can I say out there, except you'll you know it. You know it when you S.

459
00:39:28.870 --> 00:39:35.959
David Fitch: And you might have to go up to the the pastor if the the pastor. Hold on a second, Max.

460
00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:37.170
David Fitch: Now.

461
00:39:38.194 --> 00:39:38.870
Jesse Fox: Okay.

462
00:39:38.870 --> 00:39:45.056
David Fitch: Sorry folks. I got my teenage son in the other room. And anyways.

463
00:39:46.531 --> 00:39:50.709
David Fitch: okay, is it okay to do things like this in in the show?

464
00:39:50.710 --> 00:39:52.130
Jesse Fox: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

465
00:39:52.130 --> 00:39:56.540
David Fitch: Okay, cause I do have a dog at any moment. Now. He's probably gonna come in here and bark, or whatever.

466
00:39:56.750 --> 00:39:57.500
Jesse Fox: Fine. You're fine.

467
00:39:57.936 --> 00:39:59.244
David Fitch: But but

468
00:39:59.730 --> 00:40:21.639
David Fitch: but what I'm saying is, yeah, can we start with ourselves as leaders? And and then and then can we make ourselves available. The practice of the table is a big deal for me. If I sit around a table with people, not my, what do you want to call them like if I'm pastor for church, not fellow pastors of the church, but with people I live my life with.

469
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.379
David Fitch: and submit my life too.

470
00:40:24.600 --> 00:40:26.459
David Fitch: and listen to

471
00:40:26.540 --> 00:40:33.919
David Fitch: and and seek the presence of the spirit. It changes the posture out of which I live my life, and I lead.

472
00:40:34.050 --> 00:40:55.400
David Fitch: and I'm telling you. That is just an amazing practice in the in the last. In that chapter 6 of the book I give a lot of other practices that we can just work with work on together and check each other. I don't mean check hold accountable, but check like in in in my former church, where I was

473
00:40:55.420 --> 00:40:57.100
David Fitch: the founding pastor.

474
00:40:57.510 --> 00:41:03.199
David Fitch: I used to have a few people who were just checking me. Dude dude that there's something happening here.

475
00:41:03.340 --> 00:41:04.859
David Fitch: What? What's going on with you.

476
00:41:05.060 --> 00:41:07.399
David Fitch: It seems like you're amped up

477
00:41:07.460 --> 00:41:15.999
David Fitch: and you've is this, can you? Can you talk that out with me for a minute? And then what's what's actually going on? Are you feeling threatened? Are you feeling defense defensive?

478
00:41:16.070 --> 00:41:22.140
David Fitch: Do you feel like you have to leave like that, you know? Have people around who know you so well.

479
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:28.499
David Fitch: I I I look at several stories of pastors who've fallen in this book.

480
00:41:28.580 --> 00:41:30.919
David Fitch: and they all isolated themselves.

481
00:41:31.514 --> 00:41:52.009
David Fitch: You. You all know the dictator, the authoritarian in the government, who aligns himself with Yes, people, and he declares anyone who doesn't agree with him as disloyal, and and cuts them, or or fires them, or whatever you you know. That is just not. That's power over that is not power.

482
00:41:52.310 --> 00:41:52.610
Jesse Fox: Hmm.

483
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:58.440
David Fitch: And folks. It ruins your life. If you're gonna do, you might get rich fast doing that.

484
00:41:58.980 --> 00:41:59.810
David Fitch: While.

485
00:42:00.130 --> 00:42:13.220
David Fitch: but it ruins your life, it ruins your family, it ruins your relationships, it ruins your neighborhood, it ruins your town, dictatorship ruins everything eventually.

486
00:42:13.530 --> 00:42:14.080
David Fitch: and.

487
00:42:14.610 --> 00:42:31.660
David Fitch: People want it, because, oh, I'm gonna get what I want. Now, I wanna have a Christian culture where people all look like me. And I miss those days, 1958, where I used to live. And I want that back so bad. And if it takes a so so be it.

488
00:42:32.140 --> 00:42:34.489
David Fitch: Stanley. Stop it! That's the dog

489
00:42:35.370 --> 00:42:37.770
David Fitch: about that. I knew this was gonna happen.

490
00:42:38.319 --> 00:42:44.030
David Fitch: What do you think about that, you 3? Jen? What do you think about that? That answer. Does that help at all?

491
00:42:44.870 --> 00:42:50.850
Jesse Fox: Yeah, I think I mean, we you know our community right now, we're we're very focused on

492
00:42:51.430 --> 00:43:00.966
Jesse Fox: community like spending time, genuine time with one another. And actually, the we did tables for a while. At our at our church. And

493
00:43:01.910 --> 00:43:14.669
Jesse Fox: there's just something that really is just something about genuinely. I probably know Evan as our pastor better than any other pastor I've known previously. And there's something about that that does allow for

494
00:43:15.904 --> 00:43:22.710
Jesse Fox: to not let power kind of take hold the same way. When you have people close enough around you to say

495
00:43:22.850 --> 00:43:37.570
Jesse Fox: to slow things down before it escalates before we're like, as soon as if he were to start isolating, he'd have probably 15 people saying what's going on, because that's what we're cultivating. We're we're what we're feeding is

496
00:43:37.956 --> 00:43:48.129
Jesse Fox: that community and not allowing one another to isolate and then giving. And then, because when we do that, that does leave a lot more room for

497
00:43:48.170 --> 00:43:48.904
Jesse Fox: that.

498
00:43:50.470 --> 00:43:59.919
Jesse Fox: the mental part of looking for more, for whether it's affirmation power, like whatever we're looking for when we're isolating.

499
00:44:00.120 --> 00:44:02.029
Jesse Fox: spending enough time with

500
00:44:02.130 --> 00:44:17.045
Jesse Fox: others that truly know you obviously kind of limits the amount of that they're gonna let you get away with, if that makes sense and not in a in a mean calling out kind of a way, but just in a sometimes being. But being seen like someone.

501
00:44:17.520 --> 00:44:25.809
Jesse Fox: people are seeing you, and if they. If we see one another regularly like that, then we're gonna notice those changes before it becomes.

502
00:44:26.210 --> 00:44:35.420
Jesse Fox: you know. I mean, Mark Driscoll is obviously the easiest example. But like, if you, if you stood up and made that bodies behind the bus comet

503
00:44:35.720 --> 00:44:42.280
Jesse Fox: like you would have never gotten to that way, you'd have. You know people, you'd have a couple people you'd be behind the. But most of the people.

504
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:43.210
David Fitch: Ha! Ha!

505
00:44:43.210 --> 00:44:47.969
Jesse Fox: I was like, it's coming this Sunday tune in Sunday. Ted.

506
00:44:48.660 --> 00:44:49.820
Jesse Fox: under the bus.

507
00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:52.810
David Fitch: You know we are in. We are in such

508
00:44:53.070 --> 00:44:59.249
David Fitch: crazy times. When you think what social media does

509
00:44:59.390 --> 00:45:01.120
David Fitch: to our relationships.

510
00:45:01.879 --> 00:45:08.620
David Fitch: What it does is it separates us at a distance from people we disagree with.

511
00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:19.500
David Fitch: and that distance enables us to look at the other person as an object of disdain to basically import into that person all of our

512
00:45:19.670 --> 00:45:24.039
David Fitch: conceptions, misconceptions, hate projections.

513
00:45:24.120 --> 00:45:28.500
David Fitch: and before you know it, we're destroying each other.

514
00:45:28.940 --> 00:45:33.220
David Fitch: And the Church is the exact opposite of that.

515
00:45:33.390 --> 00:45:40.979
David Fitch: And when you see a pastor doing that, or, for that matter, you see, anybody posturing like that.

516
00:45:41.090 --> 00:45:46.839
David Fitch: the best thing you can do is go sit around a table and have a beverage kind of like what we're doing right now, folks, yeah.

517
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:47.270
Jesse Fox: Yeah. No.

518
00:45:47.270 --> 00:45:50.921
David Fitch: Having a beverage whatever that Mexican beer was, and I'm having a

519
00:45:51.795 --> 00:45:52.060
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

520
00:45:52.060 --> 00:45:55.180
David Fitch: Beverage. That's all. I'm gonna say, Mom, listening a beverage.

521
00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:58.660
David Fitch: What I'm saying, Jen.

522
00:45:58.660 --> 00:46:00.519
Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

523
00:46:01.530 --> 00:46:08.110
Jesse Fox: yeah, I mean, and that's the other thing is like, because we keep talking about community. But intentional community is

524
00:46:08.140 --> 00:46:17.579
Jesse Fox: different than just. You know. We're we're just hanging out, you know. We're hanging out. But like we're trying to live life together intentionally, and you you break those walls a little bit more intentionally

525
00:46:17.630 --> 00:46:18.779
Jesse Fox: while doing that.

526
00:46:19.350 --> 00:46:21.569
Jesse Fox: Yeah, I mean, we've had people

527
00:46:22.210 --> 00:46:27.580
Jesse Fox: visit our church. They kind of get freaked out a little bit, and how we're just

528
00:46:28.090 --> 00:46:30.869
Jesse Fox: like people. Yeah, I preach on Sundays. And

529
00:46:31.150 --> 00:46:37.160
Jesse Fox: but then they then they come to. We have a thing called theology pub. So they come to our theology pub, and they're like man.

530
00:46:37.220 --> 00:46:40.549
Jesse Fox: There's a lot of cussing and joshing around and

531
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:42.400
Jesse Fox: drinking

532
00:46:42.450 --> 00:46:45.419
Jesse Fox: it kind of kind of freaks. A lot of people out.

533
00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:47.966
David Fitch: Okay, if you're gonna become free Methodist,

534
00:46:48.570 --> 00:46:50.029
Jesse Fox: I know. I know light.

535
00:46:50.030 --> 00:46:51.329
David Fitch: On the drinking. My advice.

536
00:46:51.330 --> 00:46:52.080
Jesse Fox: Yeah, huh.

537
00:46:52.368 --> 00:47:01.011
David Fitch: You know one or 2 and get rid of the cussing. Okay, at least, public or okay, just do it in in your in your home. Okay?

538
00:47:01.300 --> 00:47:02.689
Jesse Fox: I, yeah, yeah.

539
00:47:02.690 --> 00:47:14.339
David Fitch: Okay yourself. Don't don't do it with anybody else. But anyways, all all that to say. Yes, but but they get freaked out because they walk in, and they see people being people

540
00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:16.459
David Fitch: relating as people.

541
00:47:16.600 --> 00:47:20.389
David Fitch: I cannot tell you, though, what a burden that takes off

542
00:47:20.620 --> 00:47:23.239
David Fitch: the pastor when you're actually known

543
00:47:23.520 --> 00:47:32.299
David Fitch: by people, and and and they accept you and love you as you are. So you don't have to get up there and fake it every Sunday when you're if you're preaching on Sunday and and

544
00:47:32.300 --> 00:47:57.859
David Fitch: and it's it in real life starts to take place. You say we're doing this intentionally, folks the first 200 years. This there was nothing intentional about it. They just lived their lives together. They went to Temple together like they used to do when, when before they became Christians they also went to Temple after they were Christians, by the way, Jewish Christians, and then they lived their lives in the neighbors house to house.

545
00:47:57.930 --> 00:48:24.750
David Fitch: and then they then they and they live their lives among the streets, amongst all the people that's refer acts chapter 2, 46, 47, 48 talk about. And there it was a way of life. It was just living life. We have lost that today in in the church and it. It's killing us, and we are now performing Christianity instead of living it. And so kudos to grassroots, church rock for folks.

546
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.810
David Fitch: This is what the future looks like.

547
00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:36.429
David Fitch: And if you're not interested, just want a program or 2. Okay, fine. But that that's just not going to meet the fullness

548
00:48:36.430 --> 00:49:03.829
David Fitch: of the need of a relationship with God through Jesus. You need so much, you just and and, by the way, it doesn't take that much extra time, does it, because when I would go to the church I had to volunteer for 52 different programs. I had to go to church. 3 services I had. I had to go to the justice Center 3 h every week I had to do now. I just do it as part of my everyday life, and I don't have to go travel or anything. So folks, if I'm making a pitch

549
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:05.040
David Fitch: grass.

550
00:49:05.040 --> 00:49:06.659
Jesse Fox: Let's church. Let's get.

551
00:49:06.660 --> 00:49:08.530
David Fitch: Back to living the gospel.

552
00:49:08.600 --> 00:49:10.620
David Fitch: instead of performing the Gosp.

553
00:49:11.530 --> 00:49:13.579
Jesse Fox: Yeah, that's good. Yeah.

554
00:49:13.830 --> 00:49:15.040
Jesse Fox: The

555
00:49:15.596 --> 00:49:18.179
Jesse Fox: so one of the things.

556
00:49:19.130 --> 00:49:21.320
Jesse Fox: Where do you see?

557
00:49:22.380 --> 00:49:26.820
Jesse Fox: What? What do you see the future in? You know we talked to

558
00:49:27.136 --> 00:49:34.583
Jesse Fox: Ryan Burge every once in a while. And he has a different view of the future. Seems like every time we talk to him. But

559
00:49:34.870 --> 00:49:35.470
David Fitch: Of the.

560
00:49:35.470 --> 00:49:36.080
Jesse Fox: The

561
00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:39.279
Jesse Fox: the Church in the United States.

562
00:49:39.550 --> 00:49:41.050
Jesse Fox: Do you see?

563
00:49:41.770 --> 00:49:48.910
Jesse Fox: You know, because theoretically, during Covid, everybody was like, well, this all this is going to spell is the church is going to consolidate into

564
00:49:49.200 --> 00:49:52.480
Jesse Fox: a few big churches, and all the small ones are going to close. That

565
00:49:52.540 --> 00:49:55.700
Jesse Fox: might have happened in some areas not so much

566
00:49:55.740 --> 00:49:57.409
Jesse Fox: in a place like Rockford.

567
00:49:57.580 --> 00:50:02.019
Jesse Fox: But where do you see the future of American Christianity? If you had to?

568
00:50:02.270 --> 00:50:04.582
Jesse Fox: I don't know. Say.

569
00:50:05.620 --> 00:50:07.403
David Fitch: Yeah, yeah. I mean,

570
00:50:09.140 --> 00:50:12.900
David Fitch: does Ryan have a future for the church? Does he see one.

571
00:50:14.437 --> 00:50:25.362
Jesse Fox: He's told us like 2 or 3 different futures. At 1 point he told us the Mega churches were all gonna die, and then he said, the Mega churches aren't gonna die. And then so it's

572
00:50:25.670 --> 00:50:26.899
Jesse Fox: it's been a few.

573
00:50:27.120 --> 00:50:35.052
David Fitch: By the way, I I've got a a doctoral dissertation oral exam with Ryan at Northern Seminary in 2 weeks.

574
00:50:35.590 --> 00:50:40.749
David Fitch: so I'm very appreciative of Ryan's work

575
00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:49.710
David Fitch: on behalf seminary. And I like. I like all the statistics. But you know, sociologists, I don't know if they're the ones you want to talk to about the future. I don't know who you want to do.

576
00:50:51.340 --> 00:50:52.160
Jesse Fox: But.

577
00:50:52.160 --> 00:50:55.560
David Fitch: I I I see back to associate.

578
00:50:55.560 --> 00:50:57.070
Jesse Fox: Intelligence of all things.

579
00:50:57.370 --> 00:50:59.410
David Fitch: An American Baptist Sociology.

580
00:50:59.410 --> 00:50:59.813
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

581
00:51:02.615 --> 00:51:03.559
David Fitch: I

582
00:51:04.240 --> 00:51:10.190
David Fitch: yeah, I am. I'm surprised. The Mega church has lasted this long, actually, but.

583
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:10.690
Jesse Fox: Hmm.

584
00:51:10.690 --> 00:51:18.399
David Fitch: I think it is shrinking if Ryan disagrees. That's one thing, but I I don't know about you, but if you go to Willow creek. It's like one.

585
00:51:18.810 --> 00:51:24.199
David Fitch: There's other reasons why Willow Creek is like one quarter the size. It was 10 years.

586
00:51:24.200 --> 00:51:25.689
Jesse Fox: Would that have to do with power.

587
00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:27.270
David Fitch: Exactly

588
00:51:29.620 --> 00:51:35.790
David Fitch: did not use that story in the book. But yes, it's a familiar story. All too familiar story will occur.

589
00:51:35.790 --> 00:51:36.300
Jesse Fox: Yeah, have you?

590
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:49.580
David Fitch: But you know it's not just those kind of stories. I was in a couple of mega chair. I've been in a couple of megaters speaking in the last oh year, and they're all down 30, 50, 70%. And.

591
00:51:49.580 --> 00:51:50.280
Jesse Fox: Wow!

592
00:51:50.280 --> 00:52:02.609
David Fitch: Attendance, and they have massive facilities. I I so number one, I I just don't see how Mega churches are going to survive. Second thing is, I don't know what's gonna happen with this election.

593
00:52:02.720 --> 00:52:10.290
David Fitch: but I do. You know anything about Quebec in Canada, the province of Quebec in the quietest revolution you ever heard of that.

594
00:52:10.650 --> 00:52:13.160
Jesse Fox: No, I just know to speak French, and have.

595
00:52:13.710 --> 00:52:15.070
David Fitch: Architect anymore.

596
00:52:16.644 --> 00:52:18.975
David Fitch: Okay. But anyways,

597
00:52:21.190 --> 00:52:23.949
David Fitch: the Roman Catholic Church after World War 2.

598
00:52:24.625 --> 00:52:25.150
David Fitch: Tried

599
00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:26.869
David Fitch: to take control

600
00:52:27.210 --> 00:52:36.339
David Fitch: of various government institutions to implement various moral restrictions, etc, etc, and it backfired, and they called it the quietest revolution.

601
00:52:36.380 --> 00:52:39.109
David Fitch: And now today, some people say.

602
00:52:39.330 --> 00:52:41.059
David Fitch: I mean, I'm hearing

603
00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:42.590
David Fitch: stories of

604
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:46.630
David Fitch: transformation and and renewal in Quebec. But

605
00:52:46.650 --> 00:52:55.379
David Fitch: for the last 1520 years Quebec has been the most secular place. If it were a country on its own. It would be the most secular country in the West.

606
00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:56.030
Jesse Fox: Wow!

607
00:52:56.030 --> 00:53:01.029
David Fitch: So few. I think it's under like 4% of of the people

608
00:53:01.090 --> 00:53:08.700
David Fitch: go to church anymore and Quebec. And and so after this, this trump. Christian nationalism, craziness.

609
00:53:09.240 --> 00:53:17.079
David Fitch: craziness, a lot more crazy than the than the Roman Catholics were in the 19 fifties.

610
00:53:17.090 --> 00:53:19.880
David Fitch: I just don't. It's not gonna be good

611
00:53:20.020 --> 00:53:37.410
David Fitch: for Christianity, and we're gonna have to pick up the pieces and start living again as and a as a witness to the kingdom of God. And so I I don't have a whole lot more to say on that, except that we gotta get back to being the people of Jesus again.

612
00:53:37.410 --> 00:53:37.920
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

613
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:38.879
David Fitch: And that's where I.

614
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:43.829
Jesse Fox: How do how do you explain? I mean in in your eyes

615
00:53:43.980 --> 00:53:45.430
Jesse Fox: the slow

616
00:53:46.750 --> 00:53:55.219
Jesse Fox: fall of evangelicalism into that, because I know there's a lot of. That's a blanket statement. There's a lot of people that don't buy into that at all.

617
00:53:55.270 --> 00:53:57.319
Jesse Fox: I know quite a few that do

618
00:53:57.945 --> 00:54:04.849
Jesse Fox: that has kind of lommed on to the the trump state, you know situation and all those things, and

619
00:54:05.474 --> 00:54:13.269
Jesse Fox: to me on the outside of it. I I in my head, or just people that aren't identifying that way, but still follow suit.

620
00:54:13.300 --> 00:54:18.949
Jesse Fox: I just I can't not see the things he's done and say, what are you talking about?

621
00:54:18.980 --> 00:54:22.969
Jesse Fox: But like, how is that that falls so steadily happened

622
00:54:23.090 --> 00:54:27.190
Jesse Fox: that we've gotten to where we're at like I it just it boggles my mind.

623
00:54:27.870 --> 00:54:30.670
David Fitch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm very interested in this question

624
00:54:30.690 --> 00:54:31.820
David Fitch: of yours.

625
00:54:32.060 --> 00:54:32.875
David Fitch: Jesse.

626
00:54:34.520 --> 00:54:38.839
David Fitch: and okay, I'm gonna give an oversimplified answer.

627
00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:45.149
David Fitch: But you know that Germany was a very Christian country prior to

628
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:46.780
David Fitch: World War 2

629
00:54:47.386 --> 00:55:10.600
David Fitch: it was 17 million. They call it German evangelical Deutsche Christians what they called it, but it German Evangelical Church. It's not an Evangelical church like in the United States, but it was the conglomeration of the major denominations, and and so you had the Catholics in the in the Lutheran. Well, whatever I don't want, I'm getting too complicated already. But what happened was so

630
00:55:10.850 --> 00:55:17.099
David Fitch: no one could believe. You know. There was a group of of Jewish political theorists.

631
00:55:17.120 --> 00:55:28.139
David Fitch: Marxist, who became postmarxist because of the failure of Marxist theories that capitalism would lead to Socialism and said capitalism led to fascism and and Adolf Hitler.

632
00:55:28.310 --> 00:55:37.279
David Fitch: okay. And they became the Frankfurt school, Frankfurt. Germany moved to France, moved to Columbia, moved to New York, Columbia University. Anyways all this to say

633
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:47.669
David Fitch: they, they said, how could this happen? Christians go? Andil Hitler? How could it happen? Christians going? How Hitler turn the other way when, when when Nazis were

634
00:55:47.720 --> 00:56:10.459
David Fitch: killing Jews by the millions, and they just said they just decipher the way ideology works. It's a social phenomena that separates us from God. We get our identity by making an enemy, and and we get angry, and all of ourself is getting invested, and there's nothing you can say rational

635
00:56:10.770 --> 00:56:19.500
David Fitch: to change people's minds. And and Enrique Bergoff in the Powers and Principalities Book said it became demonic.

636
00:56:20.070 --> 00:56:22.750
David Fitch: And how do we get ourselves out of this?

637
00:56:23.640 --> 00:56:26.030
David Fitch: We become a different people.

638
00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:47.790
David Fitch: and we listen to one another, and we've become the presence of Christ to disrupt these powers and principalities. But, you know, like Bonhoeffer started a little too late. It was a little too late. Finger wall community. I'm gonna start witnessing to another way, and he got, you know, hung. But that's where we're at today. In some respects

639
00:56:48.010 --> 00:56:48.850
David Fitch: I.

640
00:56:48.850 --> 00:56:49.770
Jesse Fox: Yeah, I

641
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:55.440
Jesse Fox: I was going to say like I, it's it's bizarre, too, because I've heard this this same argument.

642
00:56:55.590 --> 00:56:58.640
Jesse Fox: For why you follow that

643
00:56:59.030 --> 00:57:00.880
Jesse Fox: that that person

644
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:09.269
Jesse Fox: you know of saying, of saying well, but but the problem is most of the argument, I hear, floats around power, and it floats around.

645
00:57:09.623 --> 00:57:13.386
Jesse Fox: Well, we have to retain this. I made a heart. Oh, man!

646
00:57:13.700 --> 00:57:14.280
David Fitch: Yeah.

647
00:57:14.663 --> 00:57:15.430
Jesse Fox: That's cool!

648
00:57:15.430 --> 00:57:16.819
David Fitch: It was very cool.

649
00:57:17.444 --> 00:57:39.079
Jesse Fox: Zoom's being weird. But it it! How fun is that? But but the the thing that that threw me off was that that that arguments made on both sides, but it all floats around power where and and again, your book kind of points that that out a little bit more. So I was saying.

650
00:57:39.250 --> 00:57:40.370
Jesse Fox: Yeah, but like

651
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:49.289
Jesse Fox: trying to get ahead of power by using power is not the way to fix it, either. Putting the one person that you think is going to fix it all

652
00:57:49.650 --> 00:57:56.239
Jesse Fox: in position of power. You're putting that that faith and trust in in a person.

653
00:57:56.591 --> 00:58:14.400
Jesse Fox: Rather than God. And and you see that time and time again played out in the church world and all these other things like that, that it just just so so crazy to me, but but like again coming back to it, it's it's a power move. And and that was always what I heard as a kid was.

654
00:58:14.590 --> 00:58:28.219
Jesse Fox: You know, they're gonna take away our freedoms, our powers, or you know the things that God has given us. If we don't stand for these things. And it's it's such a bizarre thing to not recognize. Yeah. But you're fighting for power as well, like.

655
00:58:28.979 --> 00:58:49.859
Jesse Fox: well, you're one of the that's it's interesting because there's these peep. These people like you said earlier. Primarily, men. But women are susceptible like you said earlier at the beginning, but they're they are seeking that that power, especially the worldly power. But all of us are, you know, as humans. We're also

656
00:58:50.728 --> 00:58:57.159
Jesse Fox: giving them that power by, we're aligning with them instead of like, you know what I mean. Like, we're

657
00:58:57.600 --> 00:59:00.750
Jesse Fox: so, how do we? That's why I think it's so important that, like

658
00:59:00.770 --> 00:59:05.110
Jesse Fox: as Christians, we all have to break that cycle like. At some point. We started to put

659
00:59:05.200 --> 00:59:10.990
Jesse Fox: regular human pastors on these pedestals that have now like we're escalating their

660
00:59:11.415 --> 00:59:28.209
Jesse Fox: we're elevating them to a point of power. And we're providing that. And then they're they're just feeding off of what we've given them. I think we often see the the potential in those people. And so you easily hand over the power you're like. This guy knows what he's talking about. This guy knows with, you know, like, and then

661
00:59:28.230 --> 00:59:32.690
Jesse Fox: and then it gets gets, you know, like you said 1015 years later

662
00:59:33.070 --> 00:59:46.680
Jesse Fox: in their head, I did this. This is me, you know, it's just. It's dangerous. It's it's I mean, slippery slope. That's the easiest way to say it like, I said before. But how do? And I think that's what my question before was is, how do we?

663
00:59:46.750 --> 00:59:53.079
Jesse Fox: I mean, that's really a big shift for the Christian culture to bring the pastor back down

664
00:59:53.440 --> 01:00:08.399
Jesse Fox: to the same like level as all of the people within the congregation or within the within. Our faith is, how do we now we're trying to take this step back without like we were talking about before, like we think we're on this verge of everything crumbling.

665
01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:13.949
Jesse Fox: Well, that's because it seems almost impossible now to how do we walk back? 3 steps from where we

666
01:00:14.190 --> 01:00:18.739
Jesse Fox: before we put the marked Driscolls up in front of everyone and and

667
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:27.589
Jesse Fox: fed that power that they're searching for. How do we walk back for? How do we walk it back? We can't. Well, it's funny. And

668
01:00:27.650 --> 01:00:34.239
Jesse Fox: we our church. We just went through First Corinthians for the past 10 months. And

669
01:00:34.370 --> 01:00:45.259
Jesse Fox: you see, you see, Paul, addressing this right? You know. Yeah, very early on. You know, we? We tend to think of it as division. But Paul's really addressing, like attaching to.

670
01:00:45.430 --> 01:00:45.810
David Fitch: Yeah.

671
01:00:45.810 --> 01:00:49.750
Jesse Fox: What people are are perceiving as powerful people. Paulus, Paul.

672
01:00:50.264 --> 01:00:59.090
Jesse Fox: Pete, or whatever right you know, people are attaching themselves to these, putting these people on. So yeah, I don't know that just came to my mind. This is.

673
01:00:59.450 --> 01:01:03.382
Jesse Fox: or I guess, part of the human condition. Probably.

674
01:01:04.060 --> 01:01:06.659
David Fitch: He calls it the way of the flesh. Apollo.

675
01:01:06.660 --> 01:01:07.190
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

676
01:01:07.190 --> 01:01:11.120
David Fitch: Some go with Paul. Some people go with Pete, or some people go with Paul.

677
01:01:11.130 --> 01:01:17.090
David Fitch: Some people say I'm with Jesus. It's the way of the flesh the flesh is of earthly

678
01:01:17.655 --> 01:01:43.660
David Fitch: human power over. And then but a little later on, he says, you are the temple of the Holy Ghost are the the space of the host power of the presence of Jesus, and you are destroying it by the flesh. And this is the choice for the Church today? Are we gonna be the temple of the Holy Spirit, his presence at work? Or are we going to rely on the power of the world. In other words, the power of flesh.

679
01:01:43.670 --> 01:01:46.049
David Fitch: That's what we're faced with today.

680
01:01:46.090 --> 01:01:48.220
David Fitch: There are a lot of people out there. By the way.

681
01:01:48.450 --> 01:01:54.969
David Fitch: I mean, I don't know how many people we got listening today. I always say I might pass my podcast all 5 of us. I just want to speak to all.

682
01:01:54.970 --> 01:01:55.696
Jesse Fox: That's right.

683
01:01:56.396 --> 01:02:20.660
David Fitch: But but they're saying, Well, we need government. We need governmental power, you know. There's a long in that chapter. I I deal with this. But we gotta keep government within this play. We can't expect government to do the redemption of the world. That's the work of the power of Jesus. We can preserve society, we can do preservatory things with worldly power. We can say, give civil rights.

684
01:02:21.350 --> 01:02:24.320
David Fitch: protect black persons.

685
01:02:24.470 --> 01:02:32.479
David Fitch: wrote right to vote or write to an education or right to get a mortgage in in a neighborhood. But we can't. Heal

686
01:02:32.560 --> 01:02:46.800
David Fitch: racism. Racism must be dealt with by the power of the Holy Spirit through repentance, conviction, transformation, healing, and reconciliation in the world. So you know I'm not saying no, government.

687
01:02:46.980 --> 01:02:52.450
David Fitch: I'm just saying, keep it in its lane. Don't expect it to do God's work.

688
01:02:52.710 --> 01:03:07.509
David Fitch: Donald Trump, in that famous speech and in Iowa that opened up his his. I think Iowa caucus. This is 2,015, he said. I will give you power. You don't need anything else.

689
01:03:07.610 --> 01:03:32.730
David Fitch: I'm think I'm quoting the words verbatim, and it sucked in a bunch of Christians. I will protect you. You don't need anyone else. What does that speak to it? We've united the power of God with the power of government, and we don't need Jesus anymore. And that's where we're at in terms of our politics for many people who are voting for Donald Trump. If I can put it out there.

690
01:03:32.730 --> 01:03:33.300
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

691
01:03:33.470 --> 01:03:43.490
Jesse Fox: yeah, yeah. Can I ask you one quick question, too? It was the I I'm not gonna quote it verbatim. I just wrote the idea down. But in Chapter 4, in your book you

692
01:03:43.510 --> 01:03:52.670
Jesse Fox: you float. The idea of it may have been when we were talking about like abortion and stuff like that. How people you know use that as an excuse to

693
01:03:53.228 --> 01:04:03.450
Jesse Fox: push Christianity in in government or whatever. But I think it was something along the lines of when you force people to follow Christian rule

694
01:04:03.460 --> 01:04:05.989
Jesse Fox: that is inherently anti-redemptive.

695
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:12.679
Jesse Fox: Or the the the yeah. The end result is not redemptive. Can you expand on that a little bit.

696
01:04:12.860 --> 01:04:17.676
David Fitch: Well, I I forget whether I was using it the the case of abortion. But you know

697
01:04:19.570 --> 01:04:24.459
David Fitch: If you're like me, and you believe abortion is a Christian conviction.

698
01:04:25.640 --> 01:04:28.309
David Fitch: Need to excuse me. 1 s, Max.

699
01:04:30.090 --> 01:04:32.009
David Fitch: Come on. Okay.

700
01:04:32.650 --> 01:04:33.240
Jesse Fox: Her.

701
01:04:33.240 --> 01:04:37.951
David Fitch: Sorry folks I well, I'm I'm in my basically my living room right now, but

702
01:04:39.160 --> 01:04:40.129
David Fitch: I love it.

703
01:04:40.690 --> 01:04:42.240
David Fitch: Abortion is

704
01:04:42.700 --> 01:04:48.870
David Fitch: to understand the full ramifications of the grief that abortion causes God

705
01:04:49.270 --> 01:05:02.210
David Fitch: how it goes against God you have to be. You have to have a conversion. You have to see a certain your bodies, and sexuality and creation in a certain way

706
01:05:03.011 --> 01:05:07.709
David Fitch: to enforce. Therefore, a anti abortion law on people

707
01:05:07.860 --> 01:05:14.060
David Fitch: is counter the kingdom because you're asking them to do something they don't have the power and presence of Jesus to do.

708
01:05:14.534 --> 01:05:32.079
David Fitch: Now, that's my argument. By the way, we have to discern that there are, some people would say, abortions killing human beings. And so it's a preservative act, a good act, pre preservation for the Government to do. I respect that argument, by the way, but I think we have to discern things like that, because if we force people to do Christian things

709
01:05:32.805 --> 01:05:48.230
David Fitch: by the coercion of the government. It backfires. People run the other way because they they you can't respond to God through coercion. God is the is the working of the Holy Spirit to to bring us. Draw us

710
01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:52.760
David Fitch: to Himself, and you're getting in the way of that work of God when we do that.

711
01:05:53.670 --> 01:05:58.330
Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah, it's same thing with marriage laws, same thing with, I don't know.

712
01:05:58.470 --> 01:06:07.140
Jesse Fox: I would say, taxes. Why are they making us pay taxes. But the right? It's it's a it's you you have that that kind of that.

713
01:06:07.660 --> 01:06:11.939
Jesse Fox: that strain. And I agree, I say to

714
01:06:12.270 --> 01:06:17.530
Jesse Fox: our people fairly often that one, the burden of hell, is on the faithful.

715
01:06:18.240 --> 01:06:18.960
Jesse Fox: Oh.

716
01:06:19.490 --> 01:06:24.499
Jesse Fox: I just did a thumbs up the burden. The the burden of hell is on the faithful.

717
01:06:24.772 --> 01:06:30.770
David Fitch: Evan, Evan, when you said the burden of hell the the thumbs! Up went up. What was that all about?

718
01:06:30.770 --> 01:06:32.770
Jesse Fox: I know. Yeah, I know.

719
01:06:32.770 --> 01:06:34.280
David Fitch: Little worried about your fiancee.

720
01:06:34.536 --> 01:06:35.050
Jesse Fox: You do.

721
01:06:36.953 --> 01:06:38.076
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

722
01:06:39.810 --> 01:06:58.050
Jesse Fox: which is kind of the I've I've always used it in like a street street evangelism kind of against street evangelists, hey? You know you're trying to get people out of hell, but they have 0 care like that's not their burden. They don't care. They don't know they're living their life normally, but the burden of hell is on the faithful. The burden of

723
01:06:58.680 --> 01:07:04.019
Jesse Fox: holiness. Sanctification is on the faithful and and the only way to actually

724
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:06.390
Jesse Fox: bring people into that

725
01:07:06.700 --> 01:07:08.000
Jesse Fox: is to go.

726
01:07:08.010 --> 01:07:21.150
Jesse Fox: to have conversations, to build community, to bring people slowly, because discipleship is a slow process, not a quick raise your hand at the end of service process, but it's a slow process, and bring them into the fold of

727
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:22.920
Jesse Fox: of a holy

728
01:07:23.600 --> 01:07:24.140
Jesse Fox: Christ!

729
01:07:24.240 --> 01:07:25.320
Jesse Fox: Like

730
01:07:25.330 --> 01:07:32.109
Jesse Fox: community rather than a Christ adjacent community, which is what I call American Christianity today. Christ adjacent, not Christ, like.

731
01:07:34.850 --> 01:07:36.769
David Fitch: Good stuff, yes.

732
01:07:38.390 --> 01:07:38.870
David Fitch: hey? Man.

733
01:07:38.870 --> 01:07:40.720
Jesse Fox: Yeah, good. Oh.

734
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Jesse Fox: we are getting probably close to the time. We don't wanna eat up all your time here. But, we don't want you to yell at Max anymore. He's doing his best. But is there anything that you'd like to leave whether it's in the realm of your book, or any

735
01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:11.759
Jesse Fox: any, the the the power talk, anything you would want to like. Speak out to the Church as a whole American church right now, if anyone is listening, is there something that you would like

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01:08:12.050 --> 01:08:16.500
Jesse Fox: right now is on your head with the church of that? Is there anything that's jumping out? You.

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David Fitch: Well,

738
01:08:19.189 --> 01:08:20.500
David Fitch: is simply

739
01:08:20.540 --> 01:08:22.730
David Fitch: that it's it's time for

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David Fitch: churches across United States

741
01:08:26.090 --> 01:08:28.020
David Fitch: to tend to

742
01:08:28.180 --> 01:08:33.310
David Fitch: and sort out question of power, and how we're going to live in relation to power.

743
01:08:33.649 --> 01:08:39.620
David Fitch: and that means worldly power. But that means God's power by the power of Jesus

744
01:08:39.700 --> 01:08:43.059
David Fitch: in the Holy Spirit. And you know that text in Ephesians, chapter one.

745
01:08:43.160 --> 01:08:45.490
David Fitch: Paul says, I pray you might know

746
01:08:45.680 --> 01:08:48.640
David Fitch: the immeasurable greatness of his power

747
01:08:48.939 --> 01:08:50.680
David Fitch: to those who believe

748
01:08:51.060 --> 01:08:53.230
David Fitch: this power has been released

749
01:08:53.450 --> 01:08:56.240
David Fitch: to the death resurrection of Jesus Christ.

750
01:08:57.046 --> 01:09:01.690
David Fitch: That's what we're called to. If we just live into that power.

751
01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:04.749
David Fitch: come under it and cooperate with it.

752
01:09:05.270 --> 01:09:20.599
David Fitch: Our churches will sustain people's lives in the glory of His kingdom, and then it will spread in the terms God chooses to spread it, and we will. We will. All the pressure and all this other nonsense

753
01:09:21.010 --> 01:09:24.260
David Fitch: will flitter away all the antagonism, all the

754
01:09:24.330 --> 01:09:41.360
David Fitch: oh, I gotta vote for this guy will flitter away, be, and I and I just you know, by the way, I have a a what do you call it? A study guide available on my sub stack, you can find it to lead us through these questions, especially the question of Christian nationalism, which is chapter 4, I think, in my book.

755
01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:46.310
David Fitch: But it's time now to do that work. That's the work God's calling us, I think.

756
01:09:46.370 --> 01:09:49.149
David Fitch: to do as we are just

757
01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:54.499
David Fitch: seeing the torturous decline of the Church all over the United States, in Canada.

758
01:09:55.600 --> 01:09:56.380
Jesse Fox: Yeah.

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01:09:57.330 --> 01:10:01.719
Jesse Fox: Well, awesome. We appreciate your time.

760
01:10:01.740 --> 01:10:06.351
Jesse Fox: Yeah, we're excited when you are, gonna be preaching at grassroots. That's coming up right.

761
01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:10.570
David Fitch: You know. Can we wait until next hockey season? Cause I think I'm

762
01:10:10.720 --> 01:10:11.959
David Fitch: I think I want to be. We'll take.

763
01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:14.750
Jesse Fox: You do a game? Yeah, yeah, we'll do search in a game.

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David Fitch: Will you, will you, really?

765
01:10:16.820 --> 01:10:20.440
Jesse Fox: Absolutely. Our whole church would probably go all 40 of us.

766
01:10:20.440 --> 01:10:24.199
David Fitch: I am so, and, by the way, 40 is a great number for a church

767
01:10:25.850 --> 01:10:28.970
David Fitch: powder. There's a powder keg growing of.

768
01:10:28.970 --> 01:10:29.840
Jesse Fox: Yeah, yeah.

769
01:10:29.840 --> 01:10:35.439
David Fitch: Christians united in in grassroots in Rockford. But yeah, I I I

770
01:10:35.570 --> 01:10:42.730
David Fitch: just put it out there. I'm willing to come and go to a hockey game and preach and be with you all. It would be a blessing for me to do that.

771
01:10:43.073 --> 01:11:09.200
Jesse Fox: Well, Devin will set that up. Yeah, we'll set it up. And we could record another one of these in person, because I don't think we're anywhere near done talking about half of this stuff. So we've gone through several of your books as a church faithful presence. Few years ago the 7 practices, one. That was my favorite solid stuff. Where can people find your books? Obviously any major book retail.

772
01:11:09.200 --> 01:11:09.890
David Fitch: Yeah. There? Any.

773
01:11:10.063 --> 01:11:10.410
Jesse Fox: Shop and.

774
01:11:10.410 --> 01:11:11.740
David Fitch: Place. Yeah. Amazon.

775
01:11:11.740 --> 01:11:12.350
Jesse Fox: Okay.

776
01:11:12.350 --> 01:11:13.075
David Fitch: Place

777
01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:19.869
Jesse Fox: And your sub stack is amazing. I was on it just today, actually preparing. So you should. What was it called

778
01:11:20.050 --> 01:11:25.309
Jesse Fox: Fitch's provocation. Right? Yeah, on sub stack. Excellent. Much cleaner than what I called it.

779
01:11:25.310 --> 01:11:29.640
David Fitch: And and my Facebook page is is pretty lively at times.

780
01:11:29.890 --> 01:11:38.339
David Fitch: so feel free to come and talk. I'm I'm talking stuff there almost every day, so talking and seeing, and everything so.

781
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Jesse Fox: Well, thank you so much, David. We really appreciate it.

782
01:11:43.080 --> 01:11:43.679
David Fitch: Thanks for having.

783
01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:45.409
Jesse Fox: You again for joining us.

784
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Jesse Fox: We will. I'm gonna fake, hang up, and then but thank you for for hanging out and chatting with us. Alright! Great talk to you soon for and see you for a hockey game in a minute.

785
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Jesse Fox: Sweet! Alright! Now you're what's your what's your favorite? Are you a Canadian hockey, guy, are you black hawks?

786
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David Fitch: Well,

787
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David Fitch: I grew up in Hamilton, Ontario, but my mom was from Chicago. My dad was the Canadian in the group, and and so I became a Blackhawk fan even in Canada. But my second team is belief. So basically, I'm screwed when it comes to the playoffs this year because.

788
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Jesse Fox: Well, I'm I'm from Pittsburgh, so we we haven't made the playoffs in 2 years.

789
01:12:24.953 --> 01:12:31.180
David Fitch: I feel your pain. You have one of the greatest players who to play, but you can't make playoffs. It's it's great.

790
01:12:31.180 --> 01:12:37.399
Jesse Fox: It's awful. We have 4 hall of famers on the same team still can't make the playoffs. It's insane.

791
01:12:37.710 --> 01:12:40.072
David Fitch: Hockey is a great team game man.

792
01:12:40.410 --> 01:12:47.120
Jesse Fox: It is, it is. Yeah, alright. Well, thank you so much. This will be out next Wednesday. So.

793
01:12:47.120 --> 01:12:47.700
David Fitch: Yeah.

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01:12:47.700 --> 01:12:55.649
Jesse Fox: I was gonna throw at you. I don't know how you are on social or you don't have to. I I always encourage people to reshare. I'll I'll send you the link, or Evan will send you the link once.

795
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David Fitch: No, I'd be glad to. I'd be glad to share the links. Yeah.

796
01:12:57.910 --> 01:13:05.660
Jesse Fox: Awesome. And then if you have anything as far as links go. I usually put links and stuff in our show notes.

797
01:13:06.176 --> 01:13:17.070
Jesse Fox: So if there's anything that like direct links to the book, direct links to a website to your face. But any of that kind of stuff send it toward Evan. We'll just get it plugged in. Make sure people don't know where to find you and your stuff.

798
01:13:17.700 --> 01:13:19.460
David Fitch: Awesome. Thanks, much.

799
01:13:19.460 --> 01:13:19.790
Jesse Fox: Alright!

800
01:13:19.790 --> 01:13:22.570
David Fitch: Good to be with you. Good to meet you, too, guys.

801
01:13:22.630 --> 01:13:23.777
David Fitch: till next time,

802
01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:27.460
Jesse Fox: Absolutely. Mark. Yeah, thanks, man. Have a good see? Ya.

803
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Jesse Fox: a.